Is this PFT

Chris, that's why I visit these boards. I definitely can find better ways to spend my time, but choose to try to spread my meager knowledge of the industry and help the up-and-comers, while trying to learn from those that have been there, been where I am and are where I want to be.

I say bravo to them if they admit they were wrong in the past. However, if I have any say-so, I will not recommend them to get the job. Plain and simple. Go up to a mainline crew and ask them to forgive a scab. I AM NOT SAYING a PFT'er is a scab, however, PFT/PFJ's are just one notch above a scab in my book. Call it jealousy, insanity, whatever you want, but I will not change my mind on this one.

Bravo to you for being more forgiving than I am.

How can somebody come into this industry without doing any research about the industry? Did you plunk down a bunch of money for the training, then go blindly by marketing and buy a job without asking anybody what the consequences might be? No, you went and did some research, I hope. Otherwise, all somebody has to do is go buy a job, then say I'm sorry for degrading the industry, and all is forgiven. No thanks...not in my book.

Just my opinion. And I'll go ahead and say it now, I guarantee there's no way you'll change my mind on this subject. Welcome to the real world. Good luck out there.
 
Chris_Ford said:
The problem is that people coming into this industry don't know that it's not right to do what they're doing.
Click to expand...
sure, they might not know at the beginning.. but everyone does their research for whatever career their going to.. eventually, they'll find out and then they'll have to make that decision... but you can't say that people don't know - because they do and mostly because there are ways of finding out before it's too late.

if someone doesn't know about PFJ and tries to use that as an excuse - that to me would tell me they were too lazy to do their research.. again giving a negative count to add on to the PFJ negative count on the "hiring scale".

I don't know how anyone can see it as being "honest" or "fair" in any degree.
 
txpilot said:
Just my opinion. And I'll go ahead and say it now, I guarantee there's no way you'll change my mind on this subject. Welcome to the real world. Good luck out there.
Click to expand...

Can you clarify your opinion for me that cannot be changed no matter how much you learn about someone that you may not have known? That's a pretty hard stance to have on something in general.

If I hear you correct, if someone did come to you who had done PFT in the 90's right out of shcool, when they came to the industry without doing enough research and even knowing that PFT was bad you would not consider them for hiring no matter what. Even if since then they realized the error of their ways, flew for 7 years single pilot freight up in Alaska, show very sound judgement and above average skill compared to most pilots that are considered for the job, and also now happen to be very outspoken against PFT/PFJ and a well respected person in the pilot community. They would be a asset to the company as far as passenger safety. You would still be unwaivering and consider them banned from every holding a line job if you had your way? Am I misunderstanding you, or is that what you are saying?

Maybe I am to forgiving, but I would probably consider other factors and look at the situation as a whole. PFT would still be considered a big red flag/black mark, don't get me wrong.

This is my opinion, and I am willing to change it if I hear compelling, convincing arguments that bring up points I may not have considered.
 
"If I hear you correct, if someone did come to you who had done PFT in the 90's right out of shcool, when they came to the industry without doing enough research and even knowing that PFT was bad you would not consider them for hiring no matter what. Even if since then they realized the error of their ways, flew for 7 years single pilot freight up in Alaska, show very sound judgement and above average skill compared to most pilots that are considered for the job, and also now happen to be very outspoken against PFT/PFJ and a well respected person in the pilot community. They would be a asset to the company as far as passenger safety. You would still be unwaivering and consider them banned from every holding a line job if you had your way? Am I misunderstanding you, or is that what you are saying?"

You are absolutely correct. I would not be waivering in this. Just like I will not have a scab work at my place of business, if I have any say-so in it. I knew back then to do my research and not do it, why should he/she be given a pass at it? Yes, time has passed, but there are qualified applicants out there who did the right thing and earned it without ruining their reputation. Tell me, given your situation above, would you hire a scab? How would you explain it to the others in your company, like me, who would be very vocal about hiring a PFJ type? Is it worth it just for you to feel good about helping somebody that hurt the industry?
 
txpilot said:
"If I hear you correct, if someone did come to you who had done PFT in the 90's right out of shcool, when they came to the industry without doing enough research and even knowing that PFT was bad you would not consider them for hiring no matter what. Even if since then they realized the error of their ways, flew for 7 years single pilot freight up in Alaska, show very sound judgement and above average skill compared to most pilots that are considered for the job, and also now happen to be very outspoken against PFT/PFJ and a well respected person in the pilot community. They would be a asset to the company as far as passenger safety. You would still be unwaivering and consider them banned from every holding a line job if you had your way? Am I misunderstanding you, or is that what you are saying?"

You are absolutely correct. I would not be waivering in this. Just like I will not have a scab work at my place of business, if I have any say-so in it. I knew back then to do my research and not do it, why should he/she be given a pass at it? Yes, time has passed, but there are qualified applicants out there who did the right thing and earned it without ruining their reputation. Tell me, given your situation above, would you hire a scab? How would you explain it to the others in your company, like me, who would be very vocal about hiring a PFJ type? Is it worth it just for you to feel good about helping somebody that hurt the industry?
Click to expand...

I would not hire a scab because the whole idea of being a scab in lets say 1995 was well known throrought the industry and the general public, whereas PFT/PFJ was not. When I was 13 I knew what a scab was (I even held a sign once with my dad with some Continental pilots). After graduating high school at 17 I did not know about PFT/PFJ. It was not well known even among my dad and his pilot friends who all came from the military to the airlines in the early 70's. That is the difference between being able to forgive PFT under certain circumstances versus a scab.

Now as far as someone who did a PFT in the last few years, that would be a different story. I think that PFT/PFJ is well enough known as a bad thing and that we should do all we can to even further out it for what it is. It should be as well known and looked at as someone being a scab, and I believe it is getting to that point, but we need to do more. Before I found jetcareers years ago, I didn't know the difference between it and ab-initio. Yes, I did the research, but I would not have found jetcareers.com in 1993 most likely.
 
Let me get this straight, in 1995, your dad, who from the sound of it, is a pilot for Continental (?), did not know that PFT/PFJ is a bad thing? That's when I went into the military, since I couldn't get a job to save my life back then (didn't want to CFI...see how far that went, right:) ) and didn't want to pay for a job. When are you drawing the cut-off line for acceptable to PFT/PFJ? Just curious...
 
txpilot said:
Let me get this straight, in 1995, your dad, who from the sound of it, is a pilot for Continental (?), did not know that PFT/PFJ is a bad thing? That's when I went into the military, since I couldn't get a job to save my life back then (didn't want to CFI...see how far that went, right:) ) and didn't want to pay for a job. When are you drawing the cut-off line for acceptable to PFT/PFJ? Just curious...
Click to expand...
I was using 1995 as an example. He is a retired USAirways 767 captain, and this was back in the Lorenzo days when I was a kid holding the sign. I had never heard about PFT/PFJ from them. In the late eighties/early nineties when looking at flight schools he was not familiar with the whole PFT/PFJ thing. I think it is common for very senior captains at majors who are not on the hiring board to not know about what has been happening in flight training. They are busy doing their jobs and supporting their families and having a life outside of aviation. When he was hired, PanAm was still around and Flightsafety was the name to know (I could not afford FSA though). It turns out that I made the right decision because I did not have the money to make the wrong one (as in Gulfstream, etc).

I would draw the cuttoff line from a date standpoint sometime in the recent few years, depending on the pilot. I think word is getting out, like I said, and I have no problem with giving recent PFT/PFJ people black sheep status.
 
"I would draw the cuttoff line from a date standpoint sometime in the recent few years, depending on the pilot. I think word is getting out, like I said, and I have no problem with giving recent PFT/PFJ people black sheep status."

See, there's my dilemma with what you say. It's okay to give the people in the early days a pass, but now, nobody passes, right? Well, I was at Riddle from 90-94 and knew better than to do the PFT at the time (that was the first round of regionals making people pay for training) and was the start of PFJ. All you had to do was look around and see what was happening. So, for me, even the early guys/gals get the black sheep status since I was around then also and know what they went through and what information was available.
 
txpilot said:
"I would draw the cuttoff line from a date standpoint sometime in the recent few years, depending on the pilot. I think word is getting out, like I said, and I have no problem with giving recent PFT/PFJ people black sheep status."

See, there's my dilemma with what you say. It's okay to give the people in the early days a pass, but now, nobody passes, right? Well, I was at Riddle from 90-94 and knew better than to do the PFT at the time (that was the first round of regionals making people pay for training) and was the start of PFJ. All you had to do was look around and see what was happening. So, for me, even the early guys/gals get the black sheep status since I was around then also and know what they went through and what information was available.
Click to expand...
Your view is understanble from the point of view from your personal experience. In that same time period I was trained my my dad's friend who was also an instructor/check pilot at USAirways and I did not have as much of a view into the industry as you did going to a school like Riddle (I was busy trying to get into a non-aviation 4-year university too). I was ignorant and fortunately made the right decisions, and also found jetcareers in the late nineties, where I was exposed to what it really was, just like you were years earlier.

Keep in mind, if you read my earlier posts it is obvious I would not be giving someone a free pass. You saw the theoretical case I used and how there would have to exceptional reasons to hire someone that had made that mistake before, and that they had made that mistake years ago without knowing better.

I think you are less flexible because of your personal life experience and what you knew and when you knew it. I may be too forgiving because I can identify with being a starry eyed don't know about the industry and don't any better young pilot in 1993 (you had a network of industry oriented pilots around you, and most of my friends while I was in training had never been in a light plane). With the internet and more information, I would not give that kind of leeway to a PFT/PFJ'er today. And yes, the vast majority of those first round of regional PFJ'ers would still have black sheep status with me. I evidently wasn't clear enough about that in my scenario I originally gave.

I think that we both have the same feeling toward PFT/PFJ, just there may be some sort of "parole" for a select few of the condemmed in my real world since I think gray areas do exist.
 
Brett,

No problem. Back in the day, I was starry eyed also, and Riddle didn't have the effect you think it had. I just happened to watch the industry very carefully since I was very young, since I knew it's what I wanted to do. Riddle was a good education, but they didn't teach us not to PFT. Look at what they are doing now, and I think it shows they are just like all the rest, just looking for the money. I would dare to say most Riddle Alumni I talk to don't even recommend the school right now.

We just need to try to keep educating future pilots and try to get the industry back to where it once was. You have a much larger grey area than I...mine's pretty much non-existent.:)
 
txpilot said:
Brett,

No problem. Back in the day, I was starry eyed also, and Riddle didn't have the effect you think it had. I just happened to watch the industry very carefully since I was very young, since I knew it's what I wanted to do. Riddle was a good education, but they didn't teach us not to PFT. Look at what they are doing now, and I think it shows they are just like all the rest, just looking for the money. I would dare to say most Riddle Alumni I talk to don't even recommend the school right now.

We just need to try to keep educating future pilots and try to get the industry back to where it once was. You have a much larger grey area than I...mine's pretty much non-existent.:)
Click to expand...

That's pretty accurate from what I've heard about the school. An instructor chief/pilot I knew at Whiteman airport in L.A. was former Riddle. He would mainly higher Riddle graduates because he knew how they were trained and knew the training was good. He also said he would not go to the school today, versus a few years ago because of those changes that have happened (not having to do with the quality of training though).
 
falconvalley said:
I'm not sorry. I take pride in my professional life! I don't need to go over this thread and repeat what has already been said. You took your position and it's obvious. You probably assume and then imply. If that's your only point, then it's pointless to me, personally.

I'm honest, and I'm fair. I don't like people who aren't. That's my point. You have to ask yourself, is PFT honest? Is it fair? Maybe not in some cases, but by just blazing off that you would assume that someone intended to bypass working hard just because they PFTd is also not fair. How can you beat laziness and lack of integrity by not giving someone a fair chance to explain themself? That's what the interview is for in the first place!
Click to expand...

PFT is a "shortcut." Shortcuts = laziness/trying to get ahead by using a risky/not-quite-legit method. It's takes jobs away from qualified pilots and anyone going into a PFT program knows this but obviously doesn't care because there they are forking over money to an employer forthe priviledge of WORKING for said employer.

MTSU isn't "generalizing" he is stating the om-my-god-its-so-obvious-a-bullet-to-the-head-would-be-the-only-thing-less-obvious.
 
I agree wholeheartedly. Anything that takes away from hardworking people is not ethical.

I think mtsu was generalizing by stating that anyone that PFT'd or PFJ'd is guilty of being lazy no matter what. I don't agree with that. Until a few years ago, I didn't even know anyone could actually DO PFT! And I've been around aviation all my life. My dad's a Chief Pilot for a corporation and he didn't even know what I was talking about. That's not to say I'd ever do something like that. From what you all are talking about, it sounds pretty shady. I'd be more worried about why the company would do that in the first place. In fact, my dad's first words were, "Wow, is that legal??" Well, certainly companies that do that are getting away with something.

On the pilot side, just be fair to everyone. If you know that someone deliberately skated through "The Dues", then they don't deserve the time of day. But try and be tactful. I try to be, even if I hate someone's guts. I know, it's all about making sure not one person that doesn't deserve it, gets a job. Everyone fiercy wants to make sure that not one lazy jerk gets through. And rightfully so.
 
Is This Pft Or Not?

Okay. Back to the original thought. Schools that do dual crew time building programs following a scheduled carrier outline - is this frowned on by the airlines or no? PFT or no?

I think that real work experience out in the aircraft is great time. Weather, IFR, ATC, ect. Everything you've learned being applied. HOW IS THIS NOT QUALITY TIME?
 
txpilot said:
Not considered PFT, since you're not paying for a job (technically, anyways)...you're building flight experience. As far as airlines frowning upon it, there are rumors that some airlines will not count it/frown heavily upon it (regionals, anyways). Some say it's not quality flight time.

PS I'm just the messenger of some unsubstantiated rumors, so please aim elsewhere...don't shoot the messenger.

TX
Click to expand...

Answered here.
 
I've always wanted to be a pilot. When I first started researching aviation, I did what every kid would do......asked my teachers, school counselors and etc.... And the answer was pretty much the same...make good grades in science and math and join the military. "Thats the only way", they said. Since I was already a good student, I became more active in the NJROTC unit started preparing myself to join the military. I eventually got a little bit more info out of the instructors and of the NJROTC unit and my older brothers (one was a Vet and the other one was active at the time) to get a degree and then get into the military (totally not what that recruiter told me). That was all good because I wanted to experience college any.

I didn't quite know what I wanted to do in college. So the next step was to figure out what I wanted to major in. I figured I would get something related to the field and researched majoring in something related to aviation and/or transportation. Eventually somehow, I stumbled upon Western Michican Universtiy Aviation Program. I thought I was dreaming at the time. Wow! Flight training in college...the best thing since sliced bread. And minority scholarships...right up my ally. I was ready to put on the brown and whatever colors WMU are (JH, help me out) and head up to Michican. So I kept researching and came across another small aviation program in a community college in Ozark, Alabama. I thought to myself, "well it's small and I won't have a four year degree, but they do have a four year profession (whatever that was). That surely just as good as the degree". Ands it's closer to home and probably cheaper than moving to Michican. I finally stumbled upon the unimaginable. I found a university in my state that offered an Aviation degree and flight training. Overjoyed I put all my efforts into going to Delta State University. I never even heard of the school (only 2.5hrs from it) before.


All this stuff happened my sophomore year of high school. I began studying for the ACT right after I had my mind made up on what I wanted to do and where I wanted to go. I made enough on the ACT test the first time around to get accepted at the school of my choice. I also applied for a couple of Army ROTC scholarships just in case. Well I recieved an Army ROTC scholarship to every school I applied to and even from schools I didn't apply to. I was invited for campus visits to schools such as VMI and Marion Military Institute but, I turned them all down because I pretty much had my mind made up. I was already accepted into Delta State by my senior year of college and even recieved a small (micro organism small) music scholarship.

Fast forward a couple of years.

During my sophamore year of college was when I first heard of PFT/PFJ. A guy told me of someone else who was going to pay for training at American Eagle if I recall. The convo went something like this:

Guy: Hey did you hear so and so just interviewed and hired with Eagle.
Me: Thats cool. You know he interned for them last year. What was his total time?
Guy: I think so and so had around 1000hrs TT. (The industry was slumping at the time and 1000hrs TT was low time)
Me: Wow! I guess interning paid off.
Guy: Nope he agreed to pay for his training.
Me: You can do that?
Guy: Yeah! And its only about $25,000
Me: $25,000? I've already paying 35-40 for this training.
Guy: But you get to go right into the airlines and skip flight instructing.

You guys would not believe how many times I've heard that story. So many people from my university opted to do this. They did this mainly because they didn't know any better. Whats really sad is, you are required to have all the way to CFII to get your degree. So they earned certificates/ratings that they will never use, but they had enough money or was willing to go in debt to that. But I believe they simply didn't know.

I really can't fault them because I got suckered into going into a college with a aviation program. Out of all of the research that I did, I didn't find out about training at an FBO until I was already in a degree aviation program, wasted a little money, and probably could gotten it done faster.

I typed all of that to make the point of, if I was back in high school and I had stumbled across an Ab/Initio programs I wouldn't have known whether it was right/fair or wrong/unfair for me and others.

Forgive me for any errors. I don't have time to proofread.
 
Let me put this out there:

As far as I can tell, there is going to be an oversupply of pilots (or potential pilots) for the foreseeable future. Hell, the basic act of flying an airplane is a lot more fun than sitting in a cube all day long or hauling the garbage off. From a simple economics standpoint, this will encourage low "prices" (i.e. pay) for pilots.

It seems like many 121 pilots advocate fighting these market forces through acts that inherently require mutual agreement amongst all (or substantially all) of the participants in the "supply side" of the market. For example: discouraging young pilots from "PFJ", blackballing those who have gone through PFJ, blackballing "scabs", etc. This strikes me as futile - a rational person is not often going to forego a perceived "shortcut" to a goal.

Would it not be more effective to try to create barriers to entry to the 121 pilot market, and thus eventually reduce the pilot supply? For example, lobby Congress to: (1) require membership in a "pilots association" (like a bar association or medical association) with certain educational requirements and elevated testing standards, in order to hold a 121 job, (2) require XXX minimum hours of "acting" commercial PIC time (not "logging" PIC or SIC) time for any 121 job; (3) re-regulate the 121 carriers, increasing ticket prices and thus reducing the incentive for airlines to look for low-cost pilots.

In advocating these kind of steps, there are a lot fewer people to convice (Congress vs. every potential pilot), and there is at least plausibly a "safety" tie-in argument that is more likely to generate public sympathy.
 
KLB said:
During my sophamore year of college was when I first heard of PFT/PFJ. A guy told me of someone else who was going to pay for training at American Eagle if I recall. The convo went something like this:

Guy: Hey did you hear so and so just interviewed and hired with Eagle.
Me: Thats cool. You know he interned for them last year. What was his total time?
Guy: I think so and so had around 1000hrs TT. (The industry was slumping at the time and 1000hrs TT was low time)
Me: Wow! I guess interning paid off.
Guy: Nope he agreed to pay for his training.
Me: You can do that?
Guy: Yeah! And its only about $25,000
Me: $25,000? I've already paying 35-40 for this training.
Guy: But you get to go right into the airlines and skip flight instructing.

You guys would not believe how many times I've heard that story. So many people from my university opted to do this. They did this mainly because they didn't know any better. Whats really sad is, you are required to have all the way to CFII to get your degree. So they earned certificates/ratings that they will never use, but they had enough money or was willing to go in debt to that. But I believe they simply didn't know.

I really can't fault them because I got suckered into going into a college with a aviation program. Out of all of the research that I did, I didn't find out about training at an FBO until I was already in a degree aviation program, wasted a little money, and probably could gotten it done faster.

I typed all of that to make the point of, if I was back in high school and I had stumbled across an Ab/Initio programs I wouldn't have known whether it was right/fair or wrong/unfair for me and others.
Click to expand...

So, did you pay for the training? Or did you have a bad feeling in the pit of your stomach? That's your conscience that kept you from doing it, or else a lack of wanting more debt. Either way, it sounds like you didn't do it. Why should all the shortcut people be let off. They knew it was a shortcut, right? I feel no sympathy...that was the beginning of this mess.
 
txpilot said:
So, did you pay for the training? Or did you have a bad feeling in the pit of your stomach? That's your conscience that kept you from doing it, or else a lack of wanting more debt. Either way, it sounds like you didn't do it. Why should all the shortcut people be let off. They knew it was a shortcut, right? I feel no sympathy...that was the beginning of this mess.
Click to expand...

It was more like commone since. When I first heard about this, I was more like this, "So let me get this straight, the airline wants me to pay to be trained before I get hired. OK. If I CFI for a while, I would be getting paid to do it and won't be in any more debt." I knew squat diddly how this would impact other airline pilots in this industry. All of this lowering the price of a pilots salary....didn't have a clue.

Now don't get me wrong. I don't like PFT/PFJ/Ab initio, but I can't fault someone for being suckered by it.

Heres something to read that probably could add to the debate. http://www.aopa.org/asf/publications/inst_reports2.cfm?article=132
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top