mtsu_av8er
Well-Known Member
Ok
Is this PFT
- Thread starter meritflyer
- Start date
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
"low-ball airlines like Mesa: If no one would apply for thier abhorrent pay and contract, they would have to up the ante to meet hiring goals by making the job more enticing."
Facts:
10th year pay Xjet Capts vs Mesa, 50 seat jet, 76 vs 68/hr
2nd year f/o pay Xjet vs Mesa, 33 vs 28/hr
Mesa MAPD 300 hours, Xjet FSA ab initio program, 400 hours.
Capt Jim.
I'm no lover of Mesa but thought you might find these numbers interesting. It appears to me that working for Xjet is only marginally better than working for Mesa based on these numbers. Did you have something else in mind when speaking of "abhorrent pay and contract"?
Facts:
10th year pay Xjet Capts vs Mesa, 50 seat jet, 76 vs 68/hr
2nd year f/o pay Xjet vs Mesa, 33 vs 28/hr
Mesa MAPD 300 hours, Xjet FSA ab initio program, 400 hours.
Capt Jim.
I'm no lover of Mesa but thought you might find these numbers interesting. It appears to me that working for Xjet is only marginally better than working for Mesa based on these numbers. Did you have something else in mind when speaking of "abhorrent pay and contract"?
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
"I don't think it's fair to look past someone who has done it primarily on the basis of their PFT"
Let's get our terminology straight. PFT=Pay for Training. What does that mean?
PFJ=Pay for Job. Like Gulfstream. You pay money to do a job which is normally considered a paid entry level job with a 121 airline.
Scab=someone who takes a job from at an airline when said airlines pilot group is on strike.
My take: Gulfstream style PFJ must be stopped in it's tracks at all costs, to include discrimnation 20 years down the road. Why? People that go that route are undermining the system. The tried and true proven system that leads to success without lowering ones career expectations any worse than they already are. If you do a PFJ type program you are helping to lower the bar for the profession, much like a scab would do during a strike.
There isn't much I can do to stop Gulfstream style PFJ other than speak out against it at places like jetcareers and to "terminate it with extreme prejudice"
If that seems unfair, then I can only guess you haven't been in this biz very long.
Let's get our terminology straight. PFT=Pay for Training. What does that mean?
PFJ=Pay for Job. Like Gulfstream. You pay money to do a job which is normally considered a paid entry level job with a 121 airline.
Scab=someone who takes a job from at an airline when said airlines pilot group is on strike.
My take: Gulfstream style PFJ must be stopped in it's tracks at all costs, to include discrimnation 20 years down the road. Why? People that go that route are undermining the system. The tried and true proven system that leads to success without lowering ones career expectations any worse than they already are. If you do a PFJ type program you are helping to lower the bar for the profession, much like a scab would do during a strike.
There isn't much I can do to stop Gulfstream style PFJ other than speak out against it at places like jetcareers and to "terminate it with extreme prejudice"
If that seems unfair, then I can only guess you haven't been in this biz very long.
Chris_Ford
Well-Known Member
DE727UPS said:
I'm serious about this, but I'm not extremely emphatic about it. While I agree that PFJ is a bad thing, if someone makes a poor decision and realizes this, there's little they can do to go back and fix the past. Hanging it over their head and being a jerk about it accomplishes very little. It's the equivalent of going up to one of your buddies who made out with a really ugly girl while he was drunk one night and giving him crap, long after he's found another girl and is married. He made a poor decision, learned from it, moved on. Why can't you? You learn best from mistakes, and the PFJ mistake comes from a lack of industry knowledge. Once they're in the industry long enough, they'll likely see the err of their ways and regret the choice they made. To pick on them is quite unprofessional, immature and flat out rude. After all, they're still people.
Don't miss the bigger picture though guys. The primary point is not to punish the guy who did PFJ, as much as it is to discourage the next ten guys that are thinking about it.Chris_Ford said:
The damage that one person has done by Paying For a Job has already been done and can't be undone. The only benefit to be had by "punishing" him is to reduce the chances of the next person(s) lowering the bar further, and further, and further. It's not about revenge, it's a pre-emptive strike.
Mr_Creepy
Well-Known Member
I don't know about that. I've tried to talk LOTS of people out of it, and yet they say "yeah but this" and "yeah but that". Seems to me they need to get off their buts!
I managed to talk one person out of paying at ACA a long time ago (yes they were PFT for a long time) and it turned out they dropped the PFT 2 months later and hired him anyway, so he has become a life long convert.
Anyone who PFTs is trying to shortcut the system, pay their way in and bypass their fellow pilots.
"Scab" is a strong word but "PFT" has many similar connotations. My AA friend Magnus (great name) used to say "I put PFT a notch above Scab on the food chain."
I think he was pretty much right on.
Chris_Ford
Well-Known Member
SteveC said:It's not about revenge, it's a pre-emptive strike.
It's sophomoric.
Stone Cold
Well-Known Member
No, it's called trying to keep some semblance of an industry.
CapnJim
Well-Known Member
I don't know where you get your "facts" 727, but as per my contract 10th year Capt. pay is $79.69, not 76. I'm not sure of your financial status, but for me it's tough to call $11 per hour "marginal", and that's even if you ignore all the contratual QOL, OT, benefits, and reserve rule differences, AND ignore the first year FO pay- $19 at Mesa vs. $23 at Xjt. Mesa is the low-baller, the industry bottom. Expressjet is one of the best.DE727UPS said:
As for the Flight Safety ads you keep quoting, all I can say it that it's a long way from sales literature to actual company hiring. For my part I know of zero FO's at Xjet that were hired with 400 hours. Besides, that would be PFT writ large, no?
falconvalley
Absentee Dad of the OOTSK, Runner, Cat Frustrator
I wasn't saying that people who have been around longer don't know how to tell when someone doesn't deserve a job. I really believe that there are people that are naive enough to not know what they're always getting in to.
And like Chris said, people make unpopular decisions sometimes. I'm not disagreeing that PFT is a bad idea and that the nature of it is unethical. It certainly looks like it to me.
I have yet to read a post in this thread from someone who declares that PFT is good and that they will definitely take advantage of it, yet we're picking apart our posts, taking single quotes and pointing them out as statements with a single meaning (that's implied by the wording of the counterpoint). So, it looks like most of us actually agree, but are taking quotes out of context and then taking everything further and assuming. If you want to go over every possible case of PFT and decide whether they'd hypethetically deserve a paying airline job, then let's do that. I'll bet we'll all find that a vast majority of PFTers intended to skip a hard-working first few jobs, but there might a few that actually learned a lesson from it. If you don't think that's the case and you assume "everybody's guilty", then in my opinion you're not keeping an open mind about it.
You're exactly right, I haven't been around long enough to know all the facts, but I believe wholeheartedly in fairness and the chance to prove someone's worth in this business. I've met too many cold hearted people that have forgotten what it's like to not have all the power to decide someone's fate
And like Chris said, people make unpopular decisions sometimes. I'm not disagreeing that PFT is a bad idea and that the nature of it is unethical. It certainly looks like it to me.
I have yet to read a post in this thread from someone who declares that PFT is good and that they will definitely take advantage of it, yet we're picking apart our posts, taking single quotes and pointing them out as statements with a single meaning (that's implied by the wording of the counterpoint). So, it looks like most of us actually agree, but are taking quotes out of context and then taking everything further and assuming. If you want to go over every possible case of PFT and decide whether they'd hypethetically deserve a paying airline job, then let's do that. I'll bet we'll all find that a vast majority of PFTers intended to skip a hard-working first few jobs, but there might a few that actually learned a lesson from it. If you don't think that's the case and you assume "everybody's guilty", then in my opinion you're not keeping an open mind about it.
You're exactly right, I haven't been around long enough to know all the facts, but I believe wholeheartedly in fairness and the chance to prove someone's worth in this business. I've met too many cold hearted people that have forgotten what it's like to not have all the power to decide someone's fate
Chris_Ford
Well-Known Member
txpilot said:
Chewing someone out for a bad decision they made years ago does not do anything to make the situation better. It's hypocritical and immature. I know that sometime down the road, I'm going to eventually make a bad decision. I don't want to hear it from someone for the rest of my life, so give these people a break. They've learned from it, and they've moved on. The fact that you can't speaks volumes of what sort of individual you are.
CapnJim
Well-Known Member
That's very well written falconvalley. And the crux of your point, that PFTers shouldn't of necessity be rejected out of hand, is a compelling one. But even though they shouldn't be rejected, having PFT on thier record should be a definite black mark, in the hopes that such a stain will discourage people from taking that route.
It's a kind of Darwinism- traits that hurt the pilot species as a whole are selected against, strengthening the entire group. Airline hiring is competitive enough to make such selection viable, as no one will be willing to have something on thier record that will lower thier chances.
But we literally can't afford to take the sance that PFT is acceptable or excusable. People do make mistakes, yes, but as the saying goes, "ignorance of the law is no excuse".
It's a kind of Darwinism- traits that hurt the pilot species as a whole are selected against, strengthening the entire group. Airline hiring is competitive enough to make such selection viable, as no one will be willing to have something on thier record that will lower thier chances.
But we literally can't afford to take the sance that PFT is acceptable or excusable. People do make mistakes, yes, but as the saying goes, "ignorance of the law is no excuse".
adreamer
Well-Known Member
PFT vs PFJ
This is my 0.02 cents about this debate:
PFT - Paid for training. Every does that one time or another. You paid your money for renting a plane and instructors.
PFJ - Paid for Job. Gulfstream is the best example. You paid gulfstream about 22000 or 23000 U.S. dollars for sitting right seat of Beech 1900. You get 250 hours part 121 operation. You also get paid 8 dollars per hour while you flying for them.
This how I see it, why do you want to pay for the job which employers suppose to pay you? If there are enough pilots for PFJ, what do employers / airlines think about hiring pilots who went through CFI routes or any other ways? The airlines think there are plenty of pilots who are willing pay for their jobs / type ratings. The result is a perdictable one. Airlines would not want to hire pilots who work hard for their flight time. Few months later, you might be fired because the next guy walks in pay more than you did few months ago. You have already paid enough money for your ratings, and trainings. Do not sell yourself short.
Chris, I agree with you. You can't go back in time and undo some of decisions. However, as some fellow JCers said "Just want to discourage the next 10 guys". I totally agree with them. Think about this at CFI level. If a CFI walks into the FBO where you work and talk to owner about he/she would pay 22000 dollars for CFI job. What do you think what is going to happen to you? or the next guy just got CFI rating and looking for job?
Just my 0.02
adreamer
This is my 0.02 cents about this debate:
PFT - Paid for training. Every does that one time or another. You paid your money for renting a plane and instructors.
PFJ - Paid for Job. Gulfstream is the best example. You paid gulfstream about 22000 or 23000 U.S. dollars for sitting right seat of Beech 1900. You get 250 hours part 121 operation. You also get paid 8 dollars per hour while you flying for them.
This how I see it, why do you want to pay for the job which employers suppose to pay you? If there are enough pilots for PFJ, what do employers / airlines think about hiring pilots who went through CFI routes or any other ways? The airlines think there are plenty of pilots who are willing pay for their jobs / type ratings. The result is a perdictable one. Airlines would not want to hire pilots who work hard for their flight time. Few months later, you might be fired because the next guy walks in pay more than you did few months ago. You have already paid enough money for your ratings, and trainings. Do not sell yourself short.
Chris, I agree with you. You can't go back in time and undo some of decisions. However, as some fellow JCers said "Just want to discourage the next 10 guys". I totally agree with them. Think about this at CFI level. If a CFI walks into the FBO where you work and talk to owner about he/she would pay 22000 dollars for CFI job. What do you think what is going to happen to you? or the next guy just got CFI rating and looking for job?
Just my 0.02
adreamer
Chris_Ford said:
Welcome to the real world.
It happens EVERY day. Get a violation, bust an altitude, beat up your captain, steal someone's pekingnese and apply for a highly-sought job, yes it will be held against you.
Not that it's necessarily right or even justifiable but you're held to a higher standard as a pilot.
My neighbor with a shirt and tie can get a DUI while wearing his "Eagle Mortgage" shirt on and it won't make the paper. However, if I'm in my pilot uniform and get a DUI (in an automobile), guaranteed it'll probably make at least the regional news, if not national.
Stone Cold
Well-Known Member
Chris_Ford said:
Yes, it does speak volumes of me. I stand by what I have done in my life. I have chosen to do things the "right way", not paying for training, for a job, etc. I have a clean record and plan on keeping it that way. If somebody doesn't want to do their research or doesn't feel that pit in their stomach when doing things like this while everybody else works their butts off to get where they want, then so be it.
The fact that you are just being argumentative to defend people that have cheapened the industry definitely tells me volumes about you and where you stand on the major forces in this industry. Flown for free lately? I know people who did that to me as a CFI and undermined me making a living. Magnify that exponentially to see what happens to the industry if we "give these people a break". Where do you draw the line?
My opinion only, but I know a lot in the industry that agree with it.
BrettInLJ
Well-Known Member
A line should definitley be drawn. If I were a hiring/interviewing person and saw a PFT/PFJ on someone's record I would count that against them. If however it was years ago, they have since redeemed themselves and "paid their dues" through other kinds of flight experience, and finally that they can answer to what they were thinking doing that, showing that they were naive and ignorant at the time and fully understand now why it is bad for the industry, I may still consider them.
I think this kind of approach still accomplishes the goal of discouraging the practice because it still looks at PFT/PFJ as a black mark on someone's record. Airline pilots do sometimes get hired years down the road that once had a DUI when they were a stupid, immature nineteen or twenty year old, provided they have shown years of good judgement and maturity since then. It will stay with them as a black mark to be explained though, and so should PFT/PFJ.
I think this kind of approach still accomplishes the goal of discouraging the practice because it still looks at PFT/PFJ as a black mark on someone's record. Airline pilots do sometimes get hired years down the road that once had a DUI when they were a stupid, immature nineteen or twenty year old, provided they have shown years of good judgement and maturity since then. It will stay with them as a black mark to be explained though, and so should PFT/PFJ.
Chris_Ford
Well-Known Member
txpilot said:
The problem is that people coming into this industry don't know that it's not right to do what they're doing. A more tactful way of doing this would be to spread information (PFJ takes jobs from hard working people) rather than finger pointing and harassment. Seriously, it's like watching sorority girls accuse each other of god-knows-what.
People make mistakes. If one is unwilling to accept that, then one has serious issues. If the person is willing to admit their mistake, I say "Bravo" to them and hopefully everyone involved can move on. How can you possibly argue against that?
CapnJim
Well-Known Member
Because then you open up the flood gates for hoardes of para-scabs to pay for thier jobs, shrug, and say "Whoops! My Bad! Oh well, forgive and forget-- can I get a reciept with my career please?"Chris_Ford said:
If you meet one of these people, please, please don't say "Bravo" to them, Ok?
BrettInLJ
Well-Known Member
CapnJim said:
I think that sounds like the scenario if you are hiring a Gulfstream FO that's been working for a year or two. If on the other hand they have 5-7 years of other types of experience since then, such as flying 135 freight, etc., then do you still think its a "forgive and forget" type of thing? In other words, they f'd up before and they know it, but paid their dues since.