killbilly
Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
So did you log 37.5 hours in your logbook or the full 75?
Is ATP worth the $$$$??
- Thread starter takiniteasy
- Start date
So did you log 37.5 hours in your logbook or the full 75?
LucasM
Well-Known Member
I logged the full 75. I think I may have made a mistake though. On some of the flight I wrote that I was safety pilot for the person that was flying and when I was flying I wrote that the other person was my safety. I was told during the 302 ride how to log the number but then somebody told me that you can't log the safety pilot stuff like that and now i'm pretty confused.
killbilly
Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
What I'm curious about is if Matt777 is stating that the full 75 hours is a "lie", I want to know whether or not he logged the lie.
3enginejock
Well-Known Member
Matt I just want to let you know that your wrong. The way ATP does their cross country time building is perfectly legal and you can log every bit of it. Once the pilot flying goes under the hood and you are the safety pilot both pilots can log PIC, just make sure you dont log the entire flight from engine start to finish just wheels up to when the pilot flying goes back to visual. I always just used the OFF/ON time in the seminoles at ATP when I was the safety pilot. Its in the FAR's and a lot of schools practice this method.
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
"God enrolled me in flightschool, even though I had given up on my dream."
He works in mysterious ways...
I'd argue with Matt that safety pilot time isn't loggable as PIC. At the same time, I'm kind of curious how much multi time a guy gets at ATP if you exclude "safety pilot" time and "sim" time? I believe the ATP ads suggest you get 190 hours of multi if you do ACPP. A bit misleading if you ask me....
He works in mysterious ways...
I'd argue with Matt that safety pilot time isn't loggable as PIC. At the same time, I'm kind of curious how much multi time a guy gets at ATP if you exclude "safety pilot" time and "sim" time? I believe the ATP ads suggest you get 190 hours of multi if you do ACPP. A bit misleading if you ask me....
Matt777
Well-Known Member
I logged 75 because ATP told me it was legal. I would have never ever imagined that they would tell me something was true that wasn't. But they did. Now my logbook is all messed up. I would change it except that it would make a complete mess of my logbook and I'm not willing to do that. I'll just tell them in an interview that there is an error when I am grilled on the issue as I was in the interview for my current CFI position. My response to him was that I agreed with him 100% that it is not valid, because, according to the FAA, it is not.
3enginejock
Well-Known Member
Youd be wrong. A safety pilot is acting PIC when the pilot flying is under the hood. Im 100% sure, every single FAA ive talked to about this subject has agreed. If you logged it wrong and someone questions it that is one thing and you should fix your logbook in this case. The way I logged i was when I was the pilot flying I would log the entire leg and in the remakes put the name of the safety pilot. If I was the safety pilot I would simply state that I was the safety pilot and only log the off/on time as well as no landings/takeoffs/approaches or simulated time.
Ive heard of some airlines not liking safety pilot time but not because it is not legal. I dont know anyone who has an issue but ive seen some on these forums post about their issues. The time is legal, whether the employer likes it or not is up to them.
Matt777
Well-Known Member
That is incorrect because there are only two ways you can log PIC according to 61.51 (e):
The first: 61.51 (e)(1)(i) & also (ii): If you are the sole manipulator of the controls
The second: 61.51 (e)(1)(iii): Acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which
more than one pilot is REQUIRED UNDER THE TYPE CERTIFICATION or the regulations under which the flight is conducted (such as an FO being required to fly with a captain with less than 100 hours under part 135 ops).
"Acting as Safety pilot so the other guy can log hood time" is not a regulation under which the flight is conducted, but I do understand that the reg's wording could possibly be considered a grey area... But the FAA does not- that is why the Jepp/AOPA online CFI renewal course I took had a question regarding this EXACT scenario. It described exactly what you do at ATP and then asked if both pilots can log PIC.
The answer, according to the FAA, is "No" because a commercial pilot can only log time when they are sole manipulator of the controls. That is the FAA's position and I agree with them since their position matches the regulation exactly.
I don't feel like I really have an axe to grind with ATP- I tend to " let things go", BUT since people are in this forum to evaluate flightschools to attend THAT is why I am airing all of these issues. I'm not the type to have an axe to grind- if you know what I mean- it just stresses you out to not just get over stuff. But I want potential customers to know what they will get for their $70,000 or whatever it is now.
#1 issue: I just noticed that their ad doesn't actually say "75 hours cross-country ***PIC*** "- so I will call it misleading advertising as oppopsed to a lie.
#2 issue: I think that 3.2 hours of seminole time at CFI school is not enough (I needed 2 more sets of steep turns from the right seat).
#3 issue: I think that two spins is not adequate training considering the $45,000 I paid them. This is a customer service and value issue. 4 additional spins would cost ATP about $50 max... just add it to the program cost... heck add $200 for it and make more profit- just add it.
I completed the program and I never had to pay for a checkride a second time... but that's because the FSDO MEI exam is free the first and also the second time when you go out to do steep turns (though I do actually find them easy from the left seat for some odd reason).
The funniest part about it is that if I knew I was allowed to take my hand off the throttle in order to have two hands on the yoke I would have easily remained within tolerances. That was just an assumption on my part- don't know why. After he demoed with two hands on that first ride and I realized I could too I had no problems at all on the second ride.
Matt777
Well-Known Member
I logged it exactly the same way you described and I had the exact same understanding of the rules as you because ATP told everyone the same thing.
Apparently the FAA people you talked to don't know their regs because what is and is not allowed is right there in black and white. They may have an FAA badge, but that just means they have an FAA badge and doesn't guarantee precise knowledge of every reg from memory (except for the guys that do regularly review the regs so they can accurately quote chapter and verse when they get asked random questions like these).
Unfortunately the regs don't allow it- see my previous post.
DL31082
Well-Known Member
Matt, a safety pilot can log the time (PIC or SIC, depends upon the situation). For a good explanation please read this FAQ:
http://www.midlifeflight.com/faq/faq.php?s=1#6
It is legal and accepted. It may not be the highest quality time in one's logbook, but there is nothing wrong with it and employers understand its validity as well.
http://www.midlifeflight.com/faq/faq.php?s=1#6
It is legal and accepted. It may not be the highest quality time in one's logbook, but there is nothing wrong with it and employers understand its validity as well.
Matt777
Well-Known Member
Everything on that website's explanation makes logical sense- so then why does the FAA go out of their way in the Jepp/AOPA CFI renewal course to specifically call it out and ask you a specific question about it in order for the FAA to ensure that all CFIs know that two commerical pilots cannot log PIC time at once?
If it weren't for that fact I wouldn't be arguing this point.
The FAA needs to make up their mind it seems?
Regarding the previous post- I shouldn't have said "the only two times" because obviously we all log CFI PIC time, but what I said is exactly what the FAA said in my renewal course.
Believe me- I DO want it to be legal.
I'm not familiar with the question, nor with the answer that they give. Can you get a copy of the actual question and answer(s)?
You have to take 91.109 into consideration.
91.109 (b) No person may operate a civil aircraft in simulated instrument flight unless -
(1) The other control seat is occupied by a safety pilot who possesses at least a private pilot certificate...
SO MORE THAN ONE PILOT is required under the REGULATIONS (91.109) under which the flight is conducted ... and can be logged as PIC time per 61.51.
Before the flight both pilots would have to agree that the safety pilot will ACT as PIC (with all the legal consequences) - otherwise the safety pilot can only log SIC (as a required crewmember).
LAFF
New Member
Dynamic Aviation. I just spent a few days with one of their pilots going thru taining at Ft Benning for my 6 month camping trip to Afghanistan. Dynamic says they are not hiring co-pilots (FOs) but that is not the case. His advice was to have the all your CFI ratings, get an ATP or close to it (have the written), and CFI to build time. You have to show them you have been working as a professional pilot. No need for turbine time. Pay is pretty good while deployed.
-LAFF
-LAFF