Is ATP worth the $$$$??

[surreal1221]

Mind telling me some overseas flying opportunities that don't required a type, or 3500 hours of TT?

Or better yet - I'll make it even easier - flying opportunities overseas that the usual graduate from ATP (with 250 hours of TT, and some ME time) could get picked up for?

 

[DL31082]

Mind telling me some overseas flying opportunities that don't required a type, or 3500 hours of TT?

Or better yet - I'll make it even easier - flying opportunities overseas that the usual graduate from ATP (with 250 hours of TT, and some ME time) could get picked up for?

I was thinking the same thing. If anyone knows of any please let me know!!

 

[surreal1221]

The silence is surprising. Which hopefully reaffirms that those positions DO NOT exist, and should not be used as a marketing gimmick.

Reality sucks sometimes, but such is life.

 

[N826AW]

Besides instructing in China, I think its going to be pretty tough to find international jobs with a wet commercial unless you have citizenship and a relationship somewhere.

 

[SatelliteBeachPilot]

Agreed.

It's easy to say when you can get a job at IBC with 250 hours TT.

 

[Kleigh]

The Jax ATP location just lost 3 or 4 instructors to regionals with 800TT give or take. About 500 was multi- mostly gained instructing and the CRJ course. They did well and are in Indoc right now. To act like there are no 121 jobs out there is ill informed. To act like there are more jobs that people is equally ill informed. We havent lost anyone with 250TT, but we dont see many hanging around with more than 850 unless they want to be. That is less than a year from start of program at ATP through instructing to these qualifications. Several grad's recently jumped right from 2 months of instructing to 135 SIC jobs. One girl instructed for a few weeks then started flying a King Air or B1900 (or both). There are jobs- you just have to put your time in. Only or two non managment instructors have been there more than 2 months and they are just being picky about the next step. Keep your chin up.

 

[3enginejock]

Africa has plenty of jobs, you wont find most of them posted on the internet though. I had the chance to go to South Africa and fly Fokker 100's but instead chose to go to IBC.

Check out the pprune forums.

But you really dont have to do that. There are jobs in the US, sure it was a bit easy for me but Ive seen people get the jobs without the internal connections. Just 1 month ago people were getting hired at Pinnacle with less than 250 hours (one guy had 240). This was with the CRJ course as well though.

Colgan has hired quite a few under 1000TT.

Mesaba has hired some that have around 500-600TT.

American Eagle looks like they are going to be hiring again in January though not with the same minimums.

Pinnacle is rumored to start hiring again in the Spring of next year sometime in March. And their minimums will remain the same minimums they had before.

Things are looking good right now, I really think the industry is starting to make a turn around and he doom and gloom people might have been wrong.

 

[Radu38J]

Since this seems to be the good thread to post this question: what are the differences in the CFI program between the different locations in ATP? Do you get anything different in Vegas than JAX? I just got my commercial, and have about 2h PIC multi . I want to get all my ratings, but not get in debt at the same time. Is it better to do ATP, or should I go with another school, like Dutch Wings (their advertised rates sound good)? I'm in NorCal (Palo Alto) and would prefer something close to me and cheap (and fast). Suggestions are welcome.

 

[Gonzo]

Africa has plenty of jobs, you wont find most of them posted on the internet though. I had the chance to go to South Africa and fly Fokker 100's but instead chose to go to IBC.

Was the job is SA a paying one?
Why turn it down?
Can you PM me the info?

 

[DL31082]

The Jax ATP location just lost 3 or 4 instructors to regionals with 800TT give or take. About 500 was multi- mostly gained instructing and the CRJ course. They did well and are in Indoc right now. To act like there are no 121 jobs out there is ill informed. To act like there are more jobs that people is equally ill informed. We havent lost anyone with 250TT, but we dont see many hanging around with more than 850 unless they want to be. That is less than a year from start of program at ATP through instructing to these qualifications. Several grad's recently jumped right from 2 months of instructing to 135 SIC jobs. One girl instructed for a few weeks then started flying a King Air or B1900 (or both). There are jobs- you just have to put your time in. Only or two non managment instructors have been there more than 2 months and they are just being picky about the next step. Keep your chin up.

Yes there are some jobs out there, but I think a lot of the newer people on here still think there are 121 jobs for a 250hr wet commercial. The fact is is there isn't. Yes Mesaba and Pinnacle picked up some of your guys, but as of right now I believe even they have stopped hiring. Supposedly Eagle is going to start hiring in the winter but rumors are just that rumors. I'll believe it when it happens. There are still instructing jobs out there if you know where to look and that is where I would start.

 

[3enginejock]

Was the job is SA a paying one?
Why turn it down?
Can you PM me the info?

The job in SA was at InterAir South Africa. My father is a VP there. The only reason I did not go was because I wanted to stay in the US if it was at all possible. Not to mention they also fly to some dodgy places and the pay is worse than in the states. They also fly 737's and a couple 727's. Thats pretty much all the info I have for them at the moment.

If your really interested I can dig up more information for you, PM me.

 

[Matt777]

The worst part of ATP is their CFI school because it is too accelerated and you only get 4 hours in the seminole for your MEI. I attended the LAS (VGT) school back in April 2006. The class was good, but the flying was not enough. But this is as a Career pilot student. If you go in just for the CFI program you get 15 hours of seminole time so that would enough time.

I paid $44,000 for the program and, in retrospect, I wouldn't pay one cent more for ATP.
In fact I got ripped off because they advertise 75 hours of cross-country time which is a lie because you only get 37.5 hours. Two commercial pilots cannot both log PIC together- no matter what ATP says. While the sole manipulator of controls logs PIC under the hood the non-flying pilot cannot also log PIC because he is acting as the LEGAL PIC as safety pilot. ATP lied. The FAA made a specific point of this in the online flight instructor renewal course I took. The described a scenario that was describing nothing other than ATP and said you can't log it.

I was lucky that I got 3 weeks for CFI school instead of 2 due to the FSDO's scheduling of my checkride. I had time to finish my CFI oral exam prep AFTER I got home from CFI school! (Yes, I did pass)

I'll be honest though, now that it is all done I THINK (I'm pretty sure) I would do it over again just to get it done. But not for over $50,000!!!

IF you can afford to work at it a little at a time at your FBO and not get $70,000 of debt DO IT!!!

I have $73,000 of debt from my private FBO training and ATP and my monthly payment is $671- except I've been paying only on the interest because $565/month is all I have!

My coworkers who went to Embry Riddle and UND have $120,000 loans and $1,200/month payments. Sucks to be them! They work their butts off!

I'm not at an airline with my 1,000 hours because I'm waiting to get to 1200 hrs for single pilot commercial ops.

Since this seems to be the good thread to post this question: what are the differences in the CFI program between the different locations in ATP? Do you get anything different in Vegas than JAX? I just got my commercial, and have about 2h PIC multi . I want to get all my ratings, but not get in debt at the same time. Is it better to do ATP, or should I go with another school, like Dutch Wings (their advertised rates sound good)? I'm in NorCal (Palo Alto) and would prefer something close to me and cheap (and fast). Suggestions are welcome.

 

[Matt777]

Yes there are some jobs out there, but I think a lot of the newer people on here still think there are 121 jobs for a 250hr wet commercial. The fact is is there isn't. Yes Mesaba and Pinnacle picked up some of your guys, but as of right now I believe even they have stopped hiring. Supposedly Eagle is going to start hiring in the winter but rumors are just that rumors. I'll believe it when it happens. There are still instructing jobs out there if you know where to look and that is where I would start.

Exactly. The last time I looked at http://airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/regional/ a month or two ago all classes were cancelled and hiring was frozen. Many places are cutting back everything 10%. I'm waiting for Alaska Air Group (Alaska Airlines and Horizon Air). After their $38 million first quarter loss they have cut everything around 10% or so. This month Horizon is furloughing 80 pilots and Alaska is going to do 150.

250 hours? I doubt it. (I don't consider Mesa or Great Lakes or the like to be an airline... based on their pay they are slave owners- so I have no idea what they are hiring with, nor do I care. No offence intended to any employees- only to those companies)

 

[vdsteelman]

Pro's of ATP:
1. 140hrs of Multi time
2. Real world IFR experience flying instrument cross countries.
3. For the most part excellent instructors that love flying and want to do their job well.
4. Total immersion into flying for 3 months.
5. Meeting and becoming friends with some of the hardest working guys you'll ever meet.

Con's of ATP:
1. 57,495.00 cost for the ACPP program, private program is extra. Before buying headsets, knee board, and any VFR charts your need. (IFR charts come with the program.)
2. Zero flexibilty on where you get to fly on your IFR cross countries. (you go were dispatch tells you to go.)
3. Once you pay that 57,495.00 you are just a number to ATP. If you dont make it through the program at their pace, you leave. (I saw this happen a few times.)


This is just want I could think of right now. I went through the Private pilot and the ACPP program at FTY. I currently work at Advanced Aviation in Lawrenceville so after your tour if you want to find out what it is like come over and talk to me.

To add to the cons: the cost of checkrides is not included in the price of the program. I think the ads say "approx $3500 for exam fees." This is for the average of $500/checkride and provided you pass each one the first time out. I attended ATP in March 2008 and no one that I went with passed all checkrides the first time...many of us failed at least one. That got very expensive and stressful to add to the fact you felt rushed through the entire program.

 

[Matt777]

To add to the cons: the cost of checkrides is not included in the price of the program. I think the ads say "approx $3500 for exam fees." This is for the average of $500/checkride and provided you pass each one the first time out. I attended ATP in March 2008 and no one that I went with passed all checkrides the first time...many of us failed at least one. That got very expensive and stressful to add to the fact you felt rushed through the entire program.

Hmmmmm, something tells me that ATP doesn't give students enough airplane time...
An ENTIRE 7.7 hours for your multiengine training? Why would you need any more than that? <sarcasm>

Oh what do you expect? ATP isn't expensive or anything!!!

 

[3enginejock]

Hmmmmm, something tells me that ATP doesn't give students enough airplane time...
An ENTIRE 7.7 hours for your multiengine training? Why would you need any more than that? <sarcasm>

Oh what do you expect? ATP isn't expensive or anything!!!

Most people pass the multi add on checkride, its by far the easiest checkride of them all IMO.

ATP is expensive but they deliver what they promise. You will get your ratings faster than anywhere else. The only thing I do not like is that they took out the CRJ course for Airline Career students, now you have to pay extra if you want to take that. Most people on here will say its useless but I know first hand that It helped me get ready for airline training.

 

[DE727UPS]

Hi Matt.

I have connections at Amflight when you get to the 1200. Let me know if I can help you at all. I sorta feel responsible since you ran into me at that airshow when you were like 14. Actually, blame that on your mom....hehe....

 

[Radu38J]

Wow, UPS, that was a real Yoda-like comment

 

[Matt777]

Hi Matt.

I have connections at Amflight when you get to the 1200. Let me know if I can help you at all. I sorta feel responsible since you ran into me at that airshow when you were like 14. Actually, blame that on your mom....hehe....

Yes I am always thinking about 1200 all the time since Horizon didn't hire me before they announced furloughs! In fact, 4 of my former co-workers are getting furloughed (every pilot hired in the last year- 69 pilots now I think).

Don, you shouldn't feel responsible at all because I met you when I was 14.
I became plane crazy at the age of 7 after flying on Alaska Airlines up to Fairbanks and back- where I also got a ride in a seaplane and the Navion that was my grandfather's before he died in the '64 earthquake. I wanted to become an Alaska Airlines pilot starting then (now I think I'd prefer corporate/Net Jets).

You gave me many many many hours (over 40?) of free instruction and for that I will always be extremely grateful! You taught me to fly and I am one awesome pilot, so thanks!

Remember you told me several years back that I was too old and that I shouldn't commit to the loans- so you are totally off the hook- not responsible!

And I just had my two best CFI paychecks ever (not that impressive!) so it's all good. We get customers from other countries who come to fly "the twinstar" or train on G1000 and we've also got an FAA contract. I like where I am.

To be honest I gave up permanently on being pilot in 2001 (since I'd never been able to get the money together and was never going to). But then, after 2 years of community college I lost my financial aid and thought my life was over (in terms of ever getting a good career)... just when I thought all was lost I received a strange phone call from someone I barely knew and then he introduced me to a Frontier pilot at his Bible study who had discovered JUST THE PREVIOUS DAY a flight school where I could get a loan.

Yes, that is what I'm claiming... God enrolled me in flightschool, even though I had given up on my dream. I got it anyway. How 'bout that? (Hence my signature)
And no I'm not insane, but thanks to the readers for their concern!

 

[Matt777]

Most people pass the multi add on checkride, its by far the easiest checkride of them all IMO.

ATP is expensive but they deliver what they promise. You will get your ratings faster than anywhere else. The only thing I do not like is that they took out the CRJ course for Airline Career students, now you have to pay extra if you want to take that. Most people on here will say its useless but I know first hand that It helped me get ready for airline training.

I agree that the checkride is easy, BUT my instructor trained me in such a manner that I thought I was trying to beat the clock doing the flow: "Mixtures props throttles flaps up gear up" etc... as fast as HUMANLY possible (to the detriment of precise directional control). At one point my examiner actually said, " SLOW DOWN! THINK!!!" That was the first time I learned that it wasn't a race... then I did great on the checkride with that knowledge.

My complaints with ATP are advertising 75 hours of cross country instead of 37.5 and only getting 3.2 hours of right seat seminole time for the MEI. Ridiculous.
I don't know why steep turns are harder from the right seat, but they are. If my instructor had me do steep turns to standards before the 3.2 ran out it would have been fine.
Oh- one other sore point: Spin trainig at ATP is one spin in each direction in a 172- a .5 hour flight. That shouldn't even be legal.

<rant off>