Is a roll that big of a deal?

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Just curious--do you mind posting your current level of flying experience and how old you are? I'm guessing you're probably very 'young and invincible' by your posts,

Surprisingly, he's not that inexperienced but is pretty young.

According to some of his past posts (http://forums.jetcareers.com/935713-post6.html, http://forums.jetcareers.com/720363-post29.html, http://forums.jetcareers.com/893710-post45.html), he is 25 years old, had 1300-ish hours as of August, and CFId for 700 hours.
 
Since frankly I'm not smart enough to determine on my own what is "illegal but safe" in every given situation,

Neither am I. But that doesn't mean that you are always not smart enough to know whats "illegal but safe".

thankfully the work has been done for me through the manuals, placards, and limitations that I'm required to comply with--and since I'm going to do it "by the book", I don't have to worry about taking unnecessary risk.

If you always go by the book 100% of the time, you are not necessairly guaranteed safety from "unnecessary risk" 100% of the time. The point I'm trying to make is that there is no one to one link relationship between safety and legality. Flying an ILS down to minimums creates "unnecessary risk" in some situations if there is another airport within fuel distance that doesn't require going down to mins. If you want to never stray from the book, then thats great. But don't be fooled into thinking thats the only way to guarantee safety.

Can certain rules be waived while achieving an equivalent level of safety? Absolutely! Look at your minimum equipment list (if you've ever seen one before). Rarely is everything working 100% on the C-5s that I fly, but I have official guidance in the form of an MEL that tells me under what conditions I can safely depart with malfunctioning equipment. For example, normally we're required to have an operational weather radar, but suppose it happens to be broken today; I pull out the MEL and it says I can go as long as no portion of my route will take me into areas of known or forecast thunderstorm activity (control measure). Then I also look over and the co-pilot's radar altimeter is busted; I look that one up also and determine it's okay to go as long as I don't do a CAT II ILS. Other rules may be subject to waiver also, but there's always another set of eyes in the form of a waiver authority who is looking at what rule you request to waive and why it is necessary to waive it; this person does a cost-benefit/ORM analysis to determine under what conditions he will grant the waiver to mitigate the risk, by looking at factors such as weather, the priority of the mission, the experience level of the crew, the crew's duty day, etc. Unnecessary risk will be avoided; necessary risk will be mitigated. And I can guarantee you nobody is going to grant me a waiver to do an aileron roll in a C-5 because 1) it's not necessary to achieve any mission objective, 2) the risk is not justified by the potential benefits, and 3) my loadmaster will probably shoot me first.

All those things you posted I agree with. But I'm not talking about flying into thunderstorms without weather radar, or anything like that. I'm talking about doing a maneuver, when done correctly, puts less stress on the airframe than a steep turn. Sure there are dozens of things that could occur during doing a barrel roll that could cause an unsafe situation. If and only if every one of those factors are dealt with accordingly can the maneuver be performed safely. Some of those factors include pilot skill, aircraft condition, aircraft weight, whether you're on a IFR flight plan (loss of altitude may cause an altitude violation), the list goes on.

You (and just about everyone else in this thread) seem to hold the belief that if it's illegal, its impossible to do safely. My belief is that if it's illegal, its unsafe to do unless you go above and beyond the "normal call of duty" to ensure you're being safe. That may mean looking through aircraft logbooks to ensure proper maintenance, or pulling a stick shaker circuit breaker, etc. but it is certainly possible.

More on the legality aspect: In general (as in non-aviation realms) legality is looked upon with a "do it, but don't get caught and don't hurt anyone" mentality. No one condemns drivers who go 60 in a 55 zone, as long as no one was put into dangers way (and it doesn't take a Formula One-trained test driver to properly determine if the 5mph excess speed is going to put anyone in danger or not). No one foams at the mouth at the mention of 19 and 20 year olds drinking as long as they're not driving or putting themselves in an alcohol-induced coma. No one chimps out about downloading MP3's or movies from the pirate bay. No one ever feels the burning need need to run to the police when they hear of someone else smuggling into the US a Cuban cigar or two for personal use...

So tell me, why do people get so worked up over someone committing a "crime" in an airplane when no one was hurt or put as risk?
 
Neither am I. But that doesn't mean that you are always not smart enough to know whats "illegal but safe".



If you always go by the book 100% of the time, you are not necessairly guaranteed safety from "unnecessary risk" 100% of the time. The point I'm trying to make is that there is no one to one link relationship between safety and legality. Flying an ILS down to minimums creates "unnecessary risk" in some situations if there is another airport within fuel distance that doesn't require going down to mins. If you want to never stray from the book, then thats great. But don't be fooled into thinking thats the only way to guarantee safety.



All those things you posted I agree with. But I'm not talking about flying into thunderstorms without weather radar, or anything like that. I'm talking about doing a maneuver, when done correctly, puts less stress on the airframe than a steep turn. Sure there are dozens of things that could occur during doing a barrel roll that could cause an unsafe situation. If and only if every one of those factors are dealt with accordingly can the maneuver be performed safely. Some of those factors include pilot skill, aircraft condition, aircraft weight, whether you're on a IFR flight plan (loss of altitude may cause an altitude violation), the list goes on.

You (and just about everyone else in this thread) seem to hold the belief that if it's illegal, its impossible to do safely. My belief is that if it's illegal, its unsafe to do unless you go above and beyond the "normal call of duty" to ensure you're being safe. That may mean looking through aircraft logbooks to ensure proper maintenance, or pulling a stick shaker circuit breaker, etc. but it is certainly possible.

More on the legality aspect: In general (as in non-aviation realms) legality is looked upon with a "do it, but don't get caught and don't hurt anyone" mentality. No one condemns drivers who go 60 in a 55 zone, as long as no one was put into dangers way (and it doesn't take a Formula One-trained test driver to properly determine if the 5mph excess speed is going to put anyone in danger or not). No one foams at the mouth at the mention of 19 and 20 year olds drinking as long as they're not driving or putting themselves in an alcohol-induced coma. No one chimps out about downloading MP3's or movies from the pirate bay. No one ever feels the burning need need to run to the police when they hear of someone else smuggling into the US a Cuban cigar or two for personal use...

So tell me, why do people get so worked up over someone committing a "crime" in an airplane when no one was hurt or put as risk?

That's just nuts that you think that is fine. Personally, I think you are a whacked out dude who needs the voltage increased on his shock therapy, but that's just me. So you go get 'em fella.
 
If you always go by the book 100% of the time, you are not necessairly guaranteed safety from "unnecessary risk" 100% of the time. The point I'm trying to make is that there is no one to one link relationship between safety and legality. Flying an ILS down to minimums creates "unnecessary risk" in some situations if there is another airport within fuel distance that doesn't require going down to mins. If you want to never stray from the book, then thats great. But don't be fooled into thinking thats the only way to guarantee safety.

Nobody said you're "guaranteed" anything; I said you could mitigate risk (not eliminate it) by complying with the aircraft limitations and other regulations. Why is it so difficult to just go find an appropriately certificated aircraft to perform those maneuvers in?

We just have a basic difference in philosophy. Mine says that it's too easy to die in an airplane as it is even without making up your own rules, that there are limitations placed on what we can and can't do for a good reason, and that there is generally a right way and a wrong way to approach the responsibility we're entrusted to when flying airplanes. I can't change your philosophy any more than you can change mine, so let's agree to disagree.

I give up. You win.
 
So tell me, why do people get so worked up over someone committing a "crime" in an airplane when no one was hurt or put as risk?
OK OK guys . . . let me try this . . .
Butt, I imagine what you are trying to ask is;

Why do most all of us get miffed (worked up) by someone who seems to think it's OK to bust a FAR even though no one gets hurt, or there's no equipment damage whatsoever?

Here goes . . .

wait for it . . .




BECAUSE WE ARE PROFESSIONAL PILOTS!

Is that what you're after?

Any professional pilot who is truly professional feels the same way. If you don't, then you may have a commercial certificate and, god forbid, you may even be a CFI.

Butt you're not a professional pilot. (Typo intentional for emphasis):D
 
BECAUSE WE ARE PROFESSIONAL PILOTS!

Is that what you're after?

Any professional pilot who is truly professional feels the same way. If you don't, then you may have a commercial certificate and, god forbid, you may even be a CFI.

Butt you're not a professional pilot. (Typo intentional for emphasis):D

:yeahthat: Well said!
 
You (and just about everyone else in this thread) seem to hold the belief that if it's illegal, its impossible to do safely.

Obviously reading comprehension is not high on your list of accomplishments. Every post that I read in this thread commenting on that topic said that those illegal acts have the potential of being performed in an unsafe manner. Not a one said that it was impossible to do safely, and in fact most allowed that it was very possible to do so for a properly trained pilot.

My belief is that if it's illegal, its unsafe to do unless you go above and beyond the "normal call of duty" to ensure you're being safe.

What possible justification might you have for doing such a thing? Stick to the aviation field, please.


More on the legality aspect: In general (as in non-aviation realms) legality is looked upon with a "do it, but don't get caught and don't hurt anyone" mentality. No one condemns drivers who go 60 in a 55 zone, as long as no one was put into dangers way.

I do.

No one foams at the mouth at the mention of 19 and 20 year olds drinking as long as they're not driving or putting themselves in an alcohol-induced coma.

I do. Well, I don't literally foam at the mouth so I guess you might be right about that part, but I sure don't condone underage drinking.

No one chimps out about downloading MP3's or movies from the pirate bay.
I do. I've done it on this very website if you care to go searching. Well, I'm not sure what "chimps out" means, but I do make a deal about illegal downloading being another form of theft.

No one ever feels the burning need need to run to the police when they hear of someone else smuggling into the US a Cuban cigar or two for personal use...
Must admit I haven't run to the police on that one. Doesn't mean I condone it though, does it?

So tell me, why do people get so worked up over someone committing a "crime" in an airplane when no one was hurt or put as risk?

That question has been answered in this thread numerous times already. Do you really need someone to answer that again?
 
Have you stopped and thought about why you are the minority here? Perhaps there is a reason the majority is answering you in the same manner. I am surprised that you keep pushing this - especially given the fact that these are all people you may work with/for now and in the future.
 
Have you stopped and thought about why you are the minority here? Perhaps there is a reason the majority is answering you in the same manner. I am surprised that you keep pushing this - especially given the fact that these are all people you may work with/for now and in the future.

Just because I'm in the minority here doesn't mean I'm wrong, especially considering people around here and their tenancy to engage in group-think.

Going by the pilots I know and work with, I'm spot on. I've never met a pilot who didn't care about maintaining safety 100% of the time. I have never met a pilot that didn't care about covering their ass 100% of the time. I have never met a pilot who cares about maintaining total legality 100% of the time. Everyone fudges things here and there to make their life easier or more to add a little amusement to their day. I'm sorry, but I flat out don't believe any pilot past the PPL stage who says that they have never willingly broken a regulation...
 
Just because I'm in the minority here doesn't mean I'm wrong, especially considering people around here and their tenancy to engage in group-think.

Going by the pilots I know and work with, I'm spot on. I've never met a pilot who didn't care about maintaining safety 100% of the time. I have never met a pilot that didn't care about covering their ass 100% of the time. I have never met a pilot who cares about maintaining total legality 100% of the time. Everyone fudges things here and there to make their life easier or more to add a little amusement to their day. I'm sorry, but I flat out don't believe any pilot past the PPL stage who says that they have never willingly broken a regulation...
once again, your vast experience. ha ha:whatever: You are a brick wall, and only a hard lesson will change your mind.

I would love to see the experience level of those of us who have wasted our time trying to talk some sense into you.

What is your experience level, bye the way.

I'll start, and I think as far as flying I'm still a rookie.

Flying 5 years just over 3000 hours 400 pic turbine (320 as airline captain) 2000 tt pic

( 9 years on the fire department)

47 years old
 
once again, your vast experience. ha ha:whatever: You are a brick wall, and only a hard lesson will change your mind.

I would love to see the experience level of those of us who have wasted our time trying to talk some sense into you.

What is your experience level, bye the way.

I'll start, and I think as far as flying I'm still a rookie.

Flying 5 years just over 3000 hours 400 pic turbine (320 as airline captain) 2000 tt pic

( 9 years on the fire department)

47 years old

Still consider yourself a rookie huh? :rolleyes:

Then why try to "wow" me with your times and age?
 
Still consider yourself a rookie huh? :rolleyes:

Then why try to "wow" me with your times and age?
put up your numbers kid . . .

I'm not a rookie in life, I just know there is so much more to learn about flying, that I'm comparatively a rookie.
Not trying to "wow" you. Just challenge your thinking:o
 
put up your numbers kid . . .

I'm not a rookie in life, I just know there is so much more to learn about flying, that I'm comparatively a rookie.
Not trying to "wow" you. Just challenge your thinking:o

This is what pisses me off about this site. Its not about how well you present your argument, its all about who has the most "cred". The person with the most experience is automatically right. I don't buy into that crap. In reasoned debate, you attack the argument, not the arguer.

And the only reason you're "challenging" me on this is because you already know you have more hours than me, since someone else already posted my times above.
 
This is what pisses me off about this site. Its not about how well you present your argument, its all about who has the most "cred". The person with the most experience is automatically right. I don't buy into that crap. In reasoned debate, you attack the argument, not the arguer.

And the only reason you're "challenging" me on this is because you already know you have more hours than me, since someone else already posted my times above.
that's incorrect . . . the reason I (and every other more experienced pilot on this board) is challenging you is that we can see your argument is UNreasonable. Don't get angry get educated!

This reminds me of a sign I saw on the barber shop wall, and of things the more experienced folks would tell me when I refused to listen to reason.

cool I found it here it is!

see I found this while we were having our little tit for tat because I KNEW what you were going to say :buck:

I have had similar conversations with my flight students and rookie firefighters, and others. Most of them eventually came around a said, hey man you were right . . . that's OK that's why we are here! . . .to learn.

OK . . now I only have a few keystrokes left in my old worn out arthritic hands so good luck kid:rawk:
 

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Its not about how well you present your argument, its all about who has the most "cred".

Welcome to life. Now that you understand that, you will achieve true power when you can work within that constraint, rather than trying to change it.;)

Arguments work best when you start from a position with high "cred". That's just the way it is.
 
that's incorrect . . . the reason I (and every other more experienced pilot on this board) is challenging you is that we can see your argument is UNreasonable.

Then explain why its unreasonable. You can't use the following reasons because they have already been used.

1. Because the FAR/AIM says so
2. Because I said so and I have more hours than you
3. Because thats just how it is
4. Because WE'RE PROFESSIONALS!!

At this point this has nothing to do with being right or wrong, or whether doing a barrel roll is OK to do or not. I'm the kind of person why has to have a reason behind an opinion. When someone asks me my opinion, I need to have a few paragraphs worth explanation on why I feel that way. "Because the FAR/AIM says so", is never enough for me, nor should it be for anyone else calling themselves professional.

In the case of doing a barrel roll, I have no reason to believe it can should never be done, so I'm not going to hold the belief that it should never be done. Its as simple as that. I subscribe to two main "tenets" of aviation philosophy. 1. Don't compromise safety, and 2. Don't get busted by the feds or any other kind of authority. As long as you can do the barrel roll (or any other kind of maneuver) without violating either of those two tenets, then in my book, go for it.

I refuse to subscribe to this fundamentalist approach where all you can ever say is "Whatever the book says, I believe", thats just not the kind of person I am. You can call me "kid" or "crazy nutcase who deserves to be barred from flying forever" all you want, but you aren't going to convince me to change.
 
Welcome to life. Now that you understand that, you will achieve true power when you can work within that constraint, rather than trying to change it.;)

Arguments work best when you start from a position with high "cred". That's just the way it is.

Maybe for you, but not for me. I don't care one bit how many hours or years a pilot has flown. If he makes sense and it sounds reasonable, I'll buy it. If it doesn't make sense or sounds at all fishy, I'm going to disregard it.

If I just blindly went along with anything anyone with more experience have ever said to me, then what will I tell people when they ask me why I hold such a belief? "Why do you feel its never all right to do a barrel roll in an uncertified airplane", "Oh because a bunch of guys on the internet who are older than me said so". If someone else gave me such an explanation, I'd think they had no idea what they were talking about.
 
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