Instrument maneuvers diagram

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Well, whooooopeee freakin deeee!!! That must mean your one bad arrrrss pilot! It doesn't surprise me that you never did this manuever. It's probably too difficult for you anyway. God help me if I ever have to fly with you someday.

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Dang guy, get that stick out of your a$s
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We used them in the sim. I actually remember patterns labeled A, B, C, and D. C and D incorporated partial panel, climbs and descents, and airspeed and configuration changes. While not something I'd ever do in a CRJ, they were a great intro and exercise to build the scan, aircraft control, and the ability to think ahead of the airplane.
 
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Well, whooooopeee freakin deeee!!! That must mean your one bad arrrrss pilot! It doesn't surprise me that you never did this manuever. It's probably too difficult for you anyway. God help me if I ever have to fly with you someday.

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Too difficult for me? While you were wasting your money flying silly patterns that you will never have a practical use for, I was flying partial pannel NDB holds with a parellel entry. But I suppose that's not very difficult is it?

Dude, I was just making a comment that I'd never seen them before. I don't see the use as you can follow similar procedures by flying an approach, so why not just fly the approach? Seems a waste of money to me, that's all. I was not trying to suggest I was a better pilot for being able to get by without them. Your post was uncalled for.
 
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Too difficult for me? While you were wasting your money flying silly patterns that you will never have a practical use for, I was flying partial pannel NDB holds with a parellel entry. But I suppose that's not very difficult is it?

Dude, I was just making a comment that I'd never seen them before. I don't see the use as you can follow similar procedures by flying an approach, so why not just fly the approach? Seems a waste of money to me, that's all. I was not trying to suggest I was a better pilot for being able to get by without them. Your post was uncalled for.

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Perhaps its something you should have been exposed to but weren't. The Pattern A&B things have been around and used for initial instrument training since probably before I was born.

You're not even an instructor, nor an experienced pilot. I really don't think you are qualified to call it a useless maneuver (aka a "waste of money"), just because you made it through your instrument training without it- although I guarantee that your instructors did *something* similar with you. I'm sure every CFII on here will agree: if you think you're going to teach your instrument students BAI* by flying holds and approaches, you are in for a rude awakening. In my experience, these maneuvers are great for the early stages of instrument training.


*Basic Attitude Instrument flying, in case they forgot to teach you that too. Crack open the Instrument Flying Handbook sometime.
 
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I teach pattern A as a way to combine basic attitude instrument flying with the clock and having to reference a diagram. It's a good precurser to holding patterns and procedure turns.

Can't believe the "superior" big academies aren't teaching this stuff as it's pretty basic. Anyone who's a CFII should at least be exposed to it as it's in the FAA Instrument Flying handbook.

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DE727UPS, I know how you feel about the "superior big academies", but I certainly hope you are not implying that we are inferior simply because we chose not to waste money flying "approach like" patterns when we have about 30 approaches in the immediate area that we can choose from. You may pick maneuvers from the IFH and never see them again, but we pick ours from the Jeppesen Airway Manual and use them for the rest of our career. We have a syllabus approved by the FAA under part 141, that does not use these maneuvers. If the FAA is okay with it, perhaps you could be. Furthermore, why do you assume our CFIIs are not exposed to them. I have not been exposed to them but I'm not a CFII.
 
Okay okay. I've got to go with the "Girls, your both pretty" line here.

Both (with and without the patterns) are acceptable methods. Me personally, I'd never seen them before, but I could see the advantage. It depends on the STUDENT. Ya know, they guy who signs the paycheck. If the student gets frazzled dealing with the approach, he/she's not gonna learn squat. So, the patterns are a way to teach them without the stress of the approach, ATC, etc. Looking at it that way, it's less money than three or four frustrating lessons.
 
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Perhaps its something you should have been exposed to but weren't.


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I'll re-iterate what I sais to DE727UPS, its not in the approved syllabus. If the FAA is okay with it, perhaps you could be.

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...I guarantee that your instructors did *something* similar with you.

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You're absolutely right. He had me fly holds, and approaches.

Since you are an all knowing CFII, tell me something. What do you get out of these maneuvers that you can't get out of flying a hold or approach?

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*Basic Attitude Instrument flying, in case they forgot to teach you that too. Crack open the Instrument Flying Handbook sometime.

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Of course I know what BAI is. You kind of have to admit that these maneuvers are not exactly the bulk of the IFH. Since I didn't memorize the entire book, you have to forgive me for not remembering the tiny section devoted to them. Please don't make assumptions about my skills and knowledge until we've met.
 
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Since you are an all knowing CFII, tell me something. What do you get out of these maneuvers that you can't get out of flying a hold or approach?

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I didn't claim to be an all-knowing anything. I am a CFII; I have given more instrument instruction alone than you have total time; and I do find these maneuvers valuable.

I just don't think taking a brand spanking new instrument student up to learn BAI by practicing approaches and holds is appropriate. I think *that* is more of a waste of money than spending time learning the fundamentals of instrument flying first. I think you'll find students that spend time doing this BAI airwork that you consider silly will have a much easier time doing holds and approaches later on. Ever hear of the "building block method" of flight instruction? It works better, and more efficiently. I promise you that.

But what do I know. You seem to have things all figured out. Pity for your future students.
 
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We used them in the sim. I actually remember patterns labeled A, B, C, and D. C and D incorporated partial panel, climbs and descents, and airspeed and configuration changes. While not something I'd ever do in a CRJ, they were a great intro and exercise to build the scan, aircraft control, and the ability to think ahead of the airplane.

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And in my unproffesional opinion, the letter patterns are a hell of a lot more practical to use than steep turns.... and those used to be in the PTS!
 
Man, you should all get those sticks out your as$es. THe guy never said anything bad enough to slam him. I never learned them maneuvers and learning approaches and holds was nothing out of this world. Nice ganging up on him with your CFI talk and [censored] . I'm with you flyguy, gee, i hope they don't jump on my case now.

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6 or 1/2 dozen, in a sense.

BAI maneuvers are, IMO, a good technique for teaching instrument flying. But like flying operational stuff, they are simply another technique. I think both types have their place. I learned via the A/B/C/D during instrument training for my civil ticket back in the day. I never did them nor covered them when training for my military instrument card.

I personally would introduce them as a building block to a stud if they were having problems with scan and crosscheck....giving the A/B/C/D depending on the challenge I wanted to introduce. I wouldn't spend too much time on these, but use them as a quick lead in to the real stuff.
 
<----- Another member of the "never used/was taught these patterns during instrument training" club.
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I just don't think taking a brand spanking new instrument student up to learn BAI by practicing approaches and holds is appropriate. I think *that* is more of a waste of money than spending time learning the fundamentals of instrument flying first.

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What I see in those diagrams goes a little beyond fundamental. I consider fundamental being straight and level, turns, climbs descents, and tracking courses. If a student has those mastered there is no reason they cannot shoot a simple approach or fly a simple hold. A direct entry VOR hold is a lot simpler than what I see in those diagrams. And there are some approaches that consist of nothing more than tracking a straight line and stepping down each fix. If a student can't do that they have no business being a private pilot. What I started with was intercepting courses. Then I moved on to DME arcs. Then holding, then approaches. Seems kind of builing blockish to me, I was never overwhelmed. If what I just described seems too much for an new instrument student to handle, than perhaps I am the super hot-shot pilot you think I claim to be because I never had any problems. Nor did any of my fellow students following the exact same syllabus.

Look, I'm in no place to tell you how to teach your students. If it works for you, great. But you are also in no place to tell me that my students will suffer. No CFIIs at Sierra teach these maneuvers, and I've yet to find a student that can't handle holds or approaches when they are introduced.
 
"Furthermore, why do you assume our CFIIs are not exposed to them. I have not been exposed to them but I'm not a CFII."

I would assume that any CFII who is trained to FAA standards would be familiar with whats in the FAA Instrument Flying Handbook....be they trained under 61 or 141. YOU said you never heard of the very familiar Patterns A and B. Perhaps your superior flight academy will include this basic IFR training manuver in your CFII training....whenever you decide to go for it.

Telling me no CFII's at Serria use this manuver doesn't bother me as it should be at the instructors discretion. Telling me they have never heard of it does bother me.....
 
The many ways to skin a cat . . .
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Teaching the patterns can be an excellent method for establishing and reinforcing the scan, attitude instrument control, and task management outside of a stressful, workload intensive approach environment. On the other hand, going from the basics straight into approaches, holds, and proceedure turns can also be an effective method. I have my preferences and other instructors have theirs.

The belief that there is only 'one right way' is possibly the most poisonous attitude a teacher can posess: students learn in different and varied ways. As instructors, our job is not to make cookie-cutter stamps of ourselves, but to find innovative ways to produce safe, capable pilots. The more tools we have in our teaching toolboxes and the more open we are to new and different methods of putting those tools to use, the more likely we are to build sucessful, excited pilots.
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