Initial Commercial Multi

F

fish85

New Member
First of all, there are so many different ways to interpret the regs it makes me want to throw up. I currently hold private, instrument and multi engine ratings. I am starting my initial commerical in a multi engine. The first part of the commercial requirements is supposed to be training. 5 hours hood, 1 night x-c and 1 day. Then there are the 10 hours of PIC requirement. Since I am already rated in the plane, everything I log is PIC. Does this mean my night training flight can be counted towards the 5 hour night PIC? Can I wear the hood at night with an instructor for my 250nm xc PIC? This would take care of the rest of my hood and night requirments. Just wanted to hear some CFIs take on this.
 
The PIC stuff should be solo if you are ME rated. If not solo, then the instructor can't give you training to meet the training requirements.
 
fish85 said:
Does this mean my night training flight can be counted towards the 5 hour night PIC? Can I wear the hood at night with an instructor for my 250nm xc PIC? This would take care of the rest of my hood and night requirments. Just wanted to hear some CFIs take on this.
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As far as I know, you can't double dip like that. It has to be VFR x-countries, and being under the hood would negate that.
 
Couldn't you get the comm. single, then do an add-on ride for the twin? I'm pretty sure that would get you out of all that other crap, and save you some coin. I agree with you on the regs, they make me wanna hurl to.
 
fish85 said:
First of all, there are so many different ways to interpret the regs it makes me want to throw up. I currently hold private, instrument and multi engine ratings. I am starting my initial commerical in a multi engine. The first part of the commercial requirements is supposed to be training. 5 hours hood, 1 night x-c and 1 day. Then there are the 10 hours of PIC requirement. Since I am already rated in the plane, everything I log is PIC. Does this mean my night training flight can be counted towards the 5 hour night PIC? Can I wear the hood at night with an instructor for my 250nm xc PIC? This would take care of the rest of my hood and night requirments. Just wanted to hear some CFIs take on this.
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Here is the regulation 61.129 (b) for multiengine

(b) For an airplane multiengine rating. Except as provided in paragraph (i) of this section, a person who applies for a commercial pilot certificate with an airplane category and multiengine class rating must log at least 250 hours of flight time as a pilot that consists of at least:

(1) 100 hours in powered aircraft, of which 50 hours must be in airplanes.

(2) 100 hours of pilot-in-command flight time, which includes at least—
​

(i) 50 hours in airplanes; and

(ii) 50 hours in cross-country flight of which at least 10 hours must be in airplanes.​

(3) 20 hours of training on the areas of operation listed in §61.127(b)(2) of this part that includes at least—​

(i) 10 hours of instrument training of which at least 5 hours must be in a multiengine airplane;

(ii) 10 hours of training in a multiengine airplane that has a retractable landing gear, flaps, and controllable pitch propellers, or is turbine-powered, or for an applicant seeking a multiengine seaplane rating, 10 hours of training in a multiengine seaplane that has flaps and a controllable pitch propeller;

(iii) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a multiengine airplane in day VFR conditions, consisting of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure;

(iv) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a multiengine airplane in night VFR conditions, consisting of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and

(v) 3 hours in a multiengine airplane in preparation for the practical test within the 60-day period preceding the date of the test.​

(4) 10 hours of solo flight time in a multiengine airplane or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command in a multiengine airplane with an authorized instructor (either of which may be credited towards the flight time requirement in paragraph (b)(2) of this section), on the areas of operation listed in §61.127(b)(2) of this part that includes at least—​

(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point. However, if this requirement is being met in Hawaii, the longest segment need only have a straight-line distance of at least 150 nautical miles; and

(ii) 5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10 landings (with each landing involving a flight with a traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.​
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Re-read this and focus on what I bolded then see if you still have questions beyond that. Your PIC, that is solo, not PIC they are different and no you cannot use any PIC time to cover this. You might be confusing this with "acting PIC" (which they word as "flight time performing the duties of pilot in command") which is different and available to be used for multi aircraft since many insurance companies will not let students solo them.

As for your cross countries, see the bold, they are VFR and must be completed as such w/o a hood.

Does that answer all your questions? The FAR's for ride requirements are word for word, if you read them literally they and in the tabbed format I supplied for you then you should be able to understand them. Good luck!


Couldn't you get the comm. single, then do an add-on ride for the twin? I'm pretty sure that would get you out of all that other crap, and save you some coin. I agree with you on the regs, they make me wanna hurl to
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It saves very little as the key flights 61.129 (a)(3) & (b)(3) denote requirements specifically for the VFR cross countries must be completed in a single engine for the commercial single rating and in a multi engine for the commercial multi rating. The only saving of money is if the person was crazy enough to do their time building/cross countries in a twin vs. a single.
 
shdw said:
It saves very little as the key flights 61.129 (a)(3) & (b)(3) denote requirements specifically for the VFR cross countries must be completed in a single engine for the commercial single rating and in a multi engine for the commercial multi rating. The only saving of money is if the person was crazy enough to do their time building/cross countries in a twin vs. a single.
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What are you talking about? If you do the Single initial, then the multi-addon, it will be WAY cheaper.
 
Practice an engine failure < 200' AGL on approach (dirty) with the DPE throwing an unfolded map in your face at the same time (simulating IFR). My school never allowed an engine failure below something like 1,000' unless it was understood you were doing a single engine approach before hand, at which point "failure" would occur around 1,000' (TPA). The first time I did it was on my checkride. Besides near soiling myself, I almost busted...
 
LatitudeDancer said:
Practice an engine failure < 200' AGL on approach (dirty) with the DPE throwing an unfolded map in your face at the same time (simulating IFR). My school never allowed an engine failure below something like 1,000'
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Hopefully you're talking about simulated engine failures. Both the Pilot Examiner's Handbook and the PTS specify that engine failures below 3,000 AGL must be performed with the throttle and not the mixture or fuel selector.
 
Why oh why does anybody build time in a twin?

Is there a return on the investment that I don't know about or is it just cooler?
 
mojo6911 said:
For a while, when the regionals were hiring, they required 50+ hours.
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In my seven years in aviation, there was about one year where 50 hours got you anything.

Even then it swung so far to the bottom* that all you really needed was a wet commercial multi ticket.
Rendering twin building time useless, even then.

*lowing times instead of raising wages. But hey it's a jet job.
 
Douglas said:
In my seven years in aviation, there was about one year where 50 hours got you anything.
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Hence, the need for multi time building. If someone doesn't want to instruct(it isn't for everyone) they need to get their time somehow. 100-300 hours seems to be the norm for getting hired.
 
mojo6911 said:
Hence, the need for multi time building. If someone doesn't want to instruct(it isn't for everyone) they need to get their time somehow. 100-300 hours seems to be the norm for getting hired.
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Kinda answered his own question there, didn't he? :rotfl:

-mini
 
mojo6911 said:
Hence, the need for multi time building. If someone doesn't want to instruct(it isn't for everyone) they need to get their time somehow. 100-300 hours seems to be the norm for getting hired.
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Though most do instruct to build to the old standard 1000+tt required to be interviewed. In those two or three years of instruction, 100+ hours are accumulated as an MEI. Getting paid and not paying. 100 multi means nothing with out the required total time.

So, why oh why would you do it in a twin.

There is only a slim time frame in the aviation hiring cycle that twin time building makes financial sense. That time is when you need no more that 100 hours of twin time and wet commercial certificate for total time.

Recent flight school grads, raise your hand if you did your flight training in a twin and still find yourself in a flight instruction job, just like the guy in the single.
:pirate:
It is your hard loaned money.
 
Douglas said:
Though most do instruct to build to the old standard 1000+tt required to be interviewed. In those two or three years of instruction, 100+ hours are accumulated as an MEI. Getting paid and not paying. 100 multi means nothing with out the required total time.
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Like I said, flight instruction isn't for everyone, and it kind of bothers me that most people flight instruct to build time, but really, have no business doing it. Certainly, you can think of scenarios where people may already have 1000+ TT, but not a lot of multi.
 
mojo6911 said:
Certainly, you can think of scenarios where people may already have 1000+ TT, but not a lot of multi.
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1000TT and they don't have a commercial certificate yet?

I think there is a disparity between people that can really benefit from that sort of training to the number who actually do it.

I agree that a lot of people need to stay away from the right seat, but the fact is most don't.
 
mojo6911 said:
Like I said, flight instruction isn't for everyone, and it kind of bothers me that most people flight instruct to build time, but really, have no business doing it. Certainly, you can think of scenarios where people may already have 1000+ TT, but not a lot of multi.
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You and me both.
 
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