Initial CFI Airplane Type

justind0805

justind0805

Well-Known Member
I tried to look for the answer to this question by surfing all the forums but I really can't find it anywhere. My collegues and I were sitting around trying to figure the answer out, which is probably very easy to find in the FAR/AIM, but what the heck...it might start up a discussion.

If you are going to take the initial CFI checkride with the FSDO, do you have to do the flight portion in a complex airplane like you have to do for the initial Commercial? or can you complete the flight portion in a normal skyhawk 172s? Logically it seems like you would have to do it in a complex aircraft due to the fact that you will be performing commercial maneuvers and you will be certified to teach commercial pilots. :dunno:

Thoughts?
 
Just like the initial commercial, you can do the flight in fixed gear or complex, but you have to demonstrate proficiency at complex. Some people use two airplanes for the checkride, but to me, that just seems like extra trouble.
 
msmspilot said:
Just like the initial commercial, you can do the flight in fixed gear or complex, but you have to demonstrate proficiency at complex. Some people use two airplanes for the checkride, but to me, that just seems like extra trouble.
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:yeahthat:

The reference for this is the Flight Instructor Practical Test Standards for Airplane (FAA-S-8081-6C).

In part, it states:

The flight instructor applicant is required by 14 CFR part 61, section 61.45
to provide an airworthy, certificated aircraft for use during the practical test.
This section further requires that the aircraft must:

3. Be capable of performing all appropriate TASKS for the flight
instructor rating sought and have no operating limitations, which
prohibit the performance of those TASKS. A complex airplane must
be furnished for the performance of takeoff and landing maneuvers,
and appropriate emergency procedures. A complex landplane is one
having a retractable landing gear, flaps, and controllable propeller. A
complex seaplane is one having flaps, floats, and a controllable
propeller. Airplanes that are equipped with a full authority digital
engine control (FADEC) system are considered to have a
controllable propeller.

I hope that helps. Good luck on your checkride!
 
Ollie said:
:yeahthat:

The reference for this is the Flight Instructor Practical Test Standards for Airplane (FAA-S-8081-6C).

In part, it states:

The flight instructor applicant is required by 14 CFR part 61, section 61.45
to provide an airworthy, certificated aircraft for use during the practical test.
This section further requires that the aircraft must:

3. Be capable of performing all appropriate TASKS for the flight
instructor rating sought and have no operating limitations, which
prohibit the performance of those TASKS. A complex airplane must
be furnished for the performance of takeoff and landing maneuvers,
and appropriate emergency procedures. A complex landplane is one
having a retractable landing gear, flaps, and controllable propeller. A
complex seaplane is one having flaps, floats, and a controllable
propeller. Airplanes that are equipped with a full authority digital
engine control (FADEC) system are considered to have a
controllable propeller.

I hope that helps. Good luck on your checkride!
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Yeah thats just about as good and thorough of an answer as you could ask for! I really appreciate the help! The purpose of the question was because the only complex airplane we have at the school is a Baron. Therefore, I would have to get the MEI first, which is fine but I'm kind of low on $$$. :(

BUUUT, I thought about it for a while and figured out that I could just do the CFII first and get around using a complex aircraft for the checkride. That way I can do my training up to that point in the skyhawk. Then turn around and do the CFI and MEI with a DE. :D
 
justind0805 said:
BUUUT, I thought about it for a while and figured out that I could just do the CFII first and get around using a complex aircraft for the checkride. That way I can do my training up to that point in the skyhawk. Then turn around and do the CFI and MEI with a DE. :D
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Good thinking! That's exactly what I did and it worked out well enough.
 
justind0805 said:
How was the flight portion of the practical? What all did you do? Any pointers on what was emphasized the most on the oral?
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I took my ride with the FSDO over ten years ago so I'm sure there are some better gouges out there. The main changes since that time seem to be the FAA's areas for special emphasis.

The oral was pretty brutal. After the conducting the introductions and reviewing my qualifications the inspector gave me a very convoluted scenario in which he was a student pilot who had soloed in 199x, had y hours broken down by day/night/etc., had last flown in 199z, and was coming to me to resume his private pilot training. The inspector wanted me to determine what endorsements he should already have, what endorsements he required, and where he was lacking in aeronautical experience. On one of the requirements he was just one day outside the window. He gave me an hour or so to look all that up and write them all down then came in and grilled me about them. We had a very in-depth discussion about the FOI for a couple of hours then opened up the PTS and started knocking out the usual subjects. We talked for about three hours before lunch, took a break, then talked for another three hours after lunch. The weather was bad and he wanted to wait to fly on the following day so we called it a day. The following day we met back up to resume the oral and I taught him a lesson on compass turns. We then went out to the airplane to discuss airworthiness, inspections, required documents, and he had me teach him how to preflight with a focus on IFR preflight preparation. After about three hours he was satisfied, we took a break, then hopped in the airplane.

The flight portion was very straight forward. We very thoroughly covered everything required by the PTS with no surprises. I suppose that's a testament to the quality of the training I received. The inspector had me acquire an IFR clearance while he taxied to the runup pad, then I performed the takeoff under the hood. I recall being pretty nervous as we climbed off of RWY 3 at OUN on vectors for approach work at OKC and PWA but he took the controls and told me to relax and get myself set up for whatever approach he wanted first. It seems like we did an ILS RWY 35R into OKC followed by a touch and go then the published missed to JESKE and held for a few turns. Out of the hold we got the full VOR-A at PWA which he performed with an alternate missed to the south for air work. We did the approaches to stalls, steep turns, etc. and he had me teach him a lesson on compass turns (the flight portion of the lesson that we covered on the ground). When he was satisfied there we got the full LOC RWY 3 at OUN and I executed the approach no gyro, landed, and parked it.

There were no surprises other than how protracted and thorough the oral was. If you have any other questions let me know. I'm sure you can probably find some specific gouge on your inspector/DPE from somebody who knows him.

Study hard and good luck on your ride.
 
justind0805 said:
BUUUT, I thought about it for a while and figured out that I could just do the CFII first and get around using a complex aircraft for the checkride. That way I can do my training up to that point in the skyhawk. Then turn around and do the CFI and MEI with a DE. :D
Click to expand...

I was under the distinct impression that even if you did the II checkride as your initial, you'd still have to demonstrate the landings in a complex a/c when you do the regular CFI-A.

If it's a matter of which one to do with the FSDO and which ones to add on with a desigated examiner, doing the II checkride with the FSDO is not the easier path by any means.
 
Mike H said:
I was under the distinct impression that even if you did the II checkride as your initial, you'd still have to demonstrate the landings in a complex a/c when you do the regular CFI-A.

If it's a matter of which one to do with the FSDO and which ones to add on with a desigated examiner, doing the II checkride with the FSDO is not the easier path by any means.
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The "easiest" path is definately not what is trying to be achieved. The cheapest path with respect to my paticular situation is what we were trying to figure out.

The CFII that tought me told me that he did his CFII checkride intially and did not have to use a complex aircraft.

I imagine the reason why you can supposedly take the CFII checkride in a skyhawk is because with the CFII it does not give you authority to provide instruction for a commercial pilot (which requires complex landings, takeoffs, and emergency procedures)

Let me know if I'm wrong
 
If you do the CFII as your initial rating, you can only give instrument instruction- nothing else. Not primary instruction. No Commercial. No ATP. You can't give complex, or high performance, tailwheel, or high altitude endorsements. You can do IPC's, but not flight reviews. That is most likely the reason you can do the II checkride without using a complex airplane.

However, if you want to do the CFI-Airplane as an add-on, you'll still need to use a complex airplane, at least for the takeoffs & landings.
 
Mike H said:
I was under the distinct impression that even if you did the II checkride as your initial, you'd still have to demonstrate the landings in a complex a/c when you do the regular CFI-A.
Click to expand...

Taking the CFII checkride as your initial flight instructor certification does not require a complex airplane. I know this for a fact because I did it. Further supporting evidence can be found in the Flight Instructor Practical Test Standards for Airplane and Helicopter (FAA-S-8081-9D). It states in part:

Aircraft and Equipment Required for the Practical Test

The flight instructor⎯instrument applicant is required by 14 CFR part 61
to provide an airworthy, certificated aircraft for use during the practical
test. Its operating limitations must not prohibit the TASKS required on
the practical test. This section further requires that the aircraft must:

1. Have fully functioning dual controls, and;

2. Be capable of performing all AREAS OF OPERATION appropriate
for the instructor rating sought and have no operating limitations,
which prohibit its use in any of the AREAS OF OPERATION,
required for the practical test.

Guys, one of the fundamental skills you'll require as a flight instructor is familiarity with legal references and the ability to refer to the appropriate reference when questioned by a student. Just because you think an answer is correct or you heard another pilot say something doesn't make it correct. Check your references and find it in writing.
 
Maybe I wasn't clear enough earlier.

You do not need to use a complex airplane for the CFII checkride- regardless if it's your initial rating, or an add-on. You DO need to use one for the CFI, whether it's your initial rating or an add-on after doing the CFII.
 
Okay, so we've established that you're not required to furnish a complex airplane for the CFII checkride. Let's examine this:

Mike H said:
If you do the CFII as your initial rating, you can only give instrument instruction- nothing else. Not primary instruction. No Commercial. No ATP. You can't give complex, or high performance, tailwheel, or high altitude endorsements. You can do IPC's, but not flight reviews. That is most likely the reason you can do the II checkride without using a complex airplane.
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What instruction are you authorized to provide with a flight instructor certificate with instrument airplane privileges only? I'll argue that you're not authorized to provide any. This is based upon the verbiage of 61.195. It states, in part:

A person who holds a flight instructor certificate is subject to the following limitations:

(b) Aircraft Ratings. A flight instructor may not conduct flight training in any aircraft for which the flight instructor does not hold:

(1) A pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate with the applicable category and class rating; and

(c) Instrument Rating. A flight instructor who provides instrument training for the issuance of an instrument rating, a type rating not limited to VFR, or the instrument training required for commercial pilot and airline transport pilot certificates must hold an instrument rating on his or her pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft used for the training provided.

The key words here are category and class. According to the regulation unless you have "airplane single engine" privileges on your flight instructor certificate, you are not authorized to conduct flight training in that category and class. If I'm incorrect on this, please let me know.

The only reason you might want to do the CFII as your initial ride is to save a little cash as the OP originally suggested. When I did mine, I turned right around and began training for the CFI-A checkride and took it a week or so later.
 
The fact that they'll allow you to do the CFII as your initial rating leads me to believe that you casn provide instrument instruction of some kind. If not in an airplane, a simulator could be used. Even if an airplane is allowed, your opportunities are necessariy limited

If saving a little cash is the object, I really don't see how you'd save very much money, if any, by doing the II as your initial. And it certainly doesn't get you out of the eventual requirement of using a complex aircraft for the CFI-A rating.

I'll admit I really haven't given the question a great deal of thought because a) it didn't apply to me, b) it's not something I would advise anyone to do for a variety of reasons, and c) a Double-I Only is so unlikely to find a teaching position that I think we can relegate the question to being strictly hypothetical anyway.
 
You might be able to provide instruction in a sim or an FTD which can be used for an IPC but that would be about it. I might do a little more research on that just for GP. 61.195 states that you can't provide instruction to be used for the issuance of an instrument rating unless you hold flight instructor privileges in category and class.

I'm thinking that, at this point, this issue is moot and I'm beating a dead horse. I've enjoyed this discussion and learned a few things by researching these issues. Thanks for humoring me. :)

The takeaway points are as follows:

1.) You certainly can do a CFII initial without providing a complex airplane.

2.) You can't do much with it unless you get the CFI-A.
 
Ollie said:
I'm thinking that, at this point, this issue is moot and I'm beating a dead horse. I've enjoyed this discussion and learned a few things by researching these issues. Thanks for humoring me. :)

The takeaway points are as follows:

1.) You certainly can do a CFII initial without providing a complex airplane.

2.) You can't do much with it unless you get the CFI-A.
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Thanks guys for all of the input! Very interesting stuff here. This just means that in our "hypothetical" yet very real situation with respect to my circumstances, that I will be able to get my CFII before the MEI. Therefore, I can spend a majority of my initial flight instructor training in a relatively cheap skyhawk rather than a very expensive Baron.

Thanks again for all of the responses! :D
 
You do realize that you need 15 hours multi PIC to be eligible for MEI, right?

Also raises the question of still needing to use a complex single for the CFI-single engine airplane.
 
Mike H said:
You do realize that you need 15 hours multi PIC to be eligible for MEI, right?

Also raises the question of still needing to use a complex single for the CFI-single engine airplane.
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I'm aware...I currently have around 25 or so and I will definately be getting a little more before the big day.

Appreciate it!
 
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