In Response to WHAT changes should occur with PAN AM.

perpetual

Well-Known Member
I think it is of the utmost importance that the Idea of "the customer is always right" be made WELL aware here.

This is not a threat, however,Pan Am exists because of people. If people (the customers) are not treated or "catered" to in such a way for the pleasing, then Pan Am is going to lose $ as well as its source of existance: The customer.

I have seen many scheduling deficencies, as well as a non-customer influenced schedule. There have been many times where a person has been infact scheduled for a particular lesson, flight or the like, of which they were either not in need of completing, or informed about.

With the understanding that Pan Am is
1. A business, and
2.(secondly) a school.

The seemingly overlying princepal of operation is to make Money.

Given the Particulars of which the contract entails, there are specific rules and order of operations that in accordance with pan am's policies; are carried out.

Sadly enough though, I do see many cases where the focus of money "making" is the overly sought goal.

On a Brighter note, I have plenty of good things to say about Pan Am also. The instruction is very good, the depth of knowledge required as well as given to those
willing to learn is very high. It is definatly not the run of the mill place that allows just scraping by. I do feel that for those that Do succeed with Pan am, Do come away far more knowledgeable because of the Higher standards.

Many of the people, and almost everyone for that matter, is willing to share their knowledge and help out in any way possible. The Students, although, everyone being

in their own particular "world", or phase of training, are always eager and willing to aid when the call for help is made.
This is definately a positive side to Pan Am, and Big schools like Pan Am, Flight Saftey, and Comair in general.

Going back to my first point, and in oder to stay on topic, I would like to see a few things implemented.

1. The Schedule. The Schedule should BE SET ON A WEEK BY WEEK BASIS.

2. The schedule should be VERIFIED with the student as to what HE/SHE feels they would LIKE. (Not only does this allow for adjusting of personal learning, it also allows for normal living and EFFICIENT learning for the individual's needs).

3. The Instructors. THE instructors SHOULD HAVE THE POWER to implement and or change events/times/days/lessons etc based on THEIR knowledge of where the student lay with his/her Flight training progress.

4. DAYS Off. The student SHOULD HAVE at least 1 day off, (2 Days Preffered) Not only for Time to "Get away" from Aviation and the pace of learning, BUT More importantly,

TO Get INTO their learning effectivley and ON their own.

It IS in my eyes, as well as others, that Pan Am does not understand how to allow for "EFFECTIVE TIME OFF". As said above, the Idea of having a short break from studying not only allows for a mental refresh of what one has learned, but also gives the student (the customer) the time to ENJOY what they are infact learning/doing.

Having to come to the training facilty, on a scheduled day off is just unacceptable. And Rightly so after not having in particular, a single day of leave for over 2 months!

Comming from a Previous FBO style training, where one is allowed to learn accellerated as well as "relaxed" information I see that it is only LOGICAL to create an environment that is conductive to learning. Not Saying that Pan Am is not
conductive for learning, it is, however the oversight of people here is the issue.

The Students are NOT a number, nor should they be treated as such indirectly. They each have particular methods of learning, ability as well as outlook for "TheirTraining". The students are those that are PAYING for the Training. It ONLY
Makes Perfect SENSE for the STUDENTS to be ACTIVELY INVOLVED in when/how they are trained.

One more Issue.

BRIEF Costs. I personally and others feel that THis is a real greedy scheme to suck money away from the student.

The Instructors are paid by Pan Am/DB holdings, The COST of the Equipment is COvered by the Price of rental instructor hourly fee, as well as the TIME flown. A "Brief" Cost is simply , and pardon my french but " •".

Paying extra upwards to 100$ for 10 minutes of "Brief" time with an instructor is complete BS. Tell me Pan AM/DB Holdings. HOW much money is the instructor seeing from the added "BRIEF COSTS?"

Pan AM, Stop robbing the students of thier money with Brief Costs that in NO way suffice for the time spent during the lesson.

-=A current student REALLY concerned about The integrity, and service that is being performed.=-
 

FLDiver

New Member
WOW !!!!! You hit the nail on the head !!! I tried and tried to make Pan Am Administration aware that the customer is the one who pays the bills...It didn't matter to them. In my opinion, the administration hears the students but does not actually listen to them. The admin. people are good at giving lip service but when it comes to the mighty dollar, the student will lose every time. "Read your contact". You couldn't have been more right about the BS "brief" charges. Money sucking at its best !!!
 

Snow

'Not a new member'
All in all those seem like good points. But maybe the reason they are doing it this way, is because it is simular to airline training? Perhaps the fast pace prepares you for what is to come.. I am not sure, not having attended airline training myself!

I agree with what your saying, but from their prospective they are training you suposidly the way the regional airlines have requested and for better or worse they are set in their ways. Also having 2 schools they are trying to keep them the same, they cannot implement a suguestion of yours in FL and not in AZ, plus it would be a large task to make everyone happy. I would think they are more there to turn you into a good pilot, how they see fit, not how you might like.
I'm sure you have little say in the air force with the way your trained.

I dunno just somthing to think about, all and all I think if you turn into a good pilot and get a nice job in the end, then they have done their job right.
 

Mavmb

Well-Known Member
How many times do I have to say this? It doesn't matter what you say to the administration! They never listen and why should they really? They already have your money, so why should they care about you anymore? Wha'ts so difficult to understand about that? The only thing that matters to them is getting the next sucker to sign on the dotted line by any means possible. Wake up people; wake up!

PS- Snow you ever read any of the message boards here? Maybe you'd better! Or what am I saying? Go ahead and go to Pan Am and spend your life savings. The more people that go there and ruin your careers, the easier it will be for me to find a job eventually.
 

Snow

'Not a new member'
Mav you obviously had a poor experence there, for reasons unknown and I'm inclined to think that it is not entirely Pan Am's fault.

Either way I apreciate your view, it's good to hear both sides of the story. I just basicly want a place with good (airline orenated) training and good aircraft and it seems from all points of view, good and bad that seems to be the case. So in that I am satisfied.

Anyhow best of luck for the future and maybe I'll even be shareing the cockpit with you one day!
 
G

Guest

Guest
The briefs are great. When you are given one. They really make the lesson so more meaningful. I think that if the teachers actually briefed there would be a lot less RT's and failed stage checks. Need we remind the teachers that we don't know anything unless you teach it to us.

the main problem I have with the briefs is the mathematical formula they apply to hobbs time to figure it out. right now they charge 1.4 four hours to every hour of hobbs time. the problem is some missons are 2.5 and some are only one. Yet the briefing times are always the same. This is a big flaw. the briefing time should be .4 hours no matter how long the hobbs runs.

THe other problem is the consitency of the instruction. The instructors all know their stuff, but not all can effectively teach it. There seems to be a lot of discrepency in the material taught from one instructor to the next. this confuses the heck out of the students.

The things that need to change with pan am is 3 things.

Be honest in your marketing. People are mad mainly because they feel lied to. The product they signed up for is not the one they got.

Screening. This is a bit much for some people. screen people so they know whether they can handle it or not. then let them decide.

Make it an educational institution for the beginners and a rigorous airline training academy for the upper classman. the rigorous schedules is not conducive to learning for the average beginner. Once we have the basics then we can learn to apply them as the pro's do. The airlines training schools are designed for accomplished pilots, not for people who don't even know what a rudder does.
 

Wolverine

New Member
Sometimes longer flights require longer briefing times. In 1.5 you may shoot 3 approaches, but in 2.5 you may shoot 6 approaches and require twice the briefing. I don't mind paying for the briefing, as long as I'm getting it. For a 1.5 hr flight, I'm paying for 0.6 (36 minutes) of briefing and I rarely get that. Although, many instructors will make it up by giving free ground sessions. A 1.2 multiplier would be more realistic.

I think it's ridiculous to have the same 1.4 multiplier for x-c flights. On a 4 hour x-c, I'm charged for 1.6 (96 minutes) of briefing. It usually ends of being about 20-30 minutes of total ground briefing because there's all that dead time up in the air to talk about what's happened so far and what's going to happen.

I agree with the inconsistency of instruction. PAIFA has the AOM for the archers and seminoles which should make all procedures and briefings and callouts exactly the same, but many instructors make their own little amendments which causes the inconsistencies.

PAIFA's reasoning for making it nearly impossible to get a leave is that they want us to keep on schedule for our own good. While I do understand them being strict to force to us to study hard and finish sooner, I feel trapped. When I feel trapped, I lose motivation and my rate of learning slows or stops. When I get the chance to escape for a couple days, I feel like a new person, I come back highly motivated and ready to learn all that I can. That's something they should take into consideration. Allowing one leave per year is not enough.
 

Mavmb

Well-Known Member
I've had a bad experience there for "reasons unknown"??? No, I've posed those reasons over and over again a million times. Some people either just don't listen or are one of the Pan Scam administrative agents on here doing damage control.
 

Snow

'Not a new member'
fukoki,

As far as I know, Pan Am does have GA based flight school(s) run under a different name. Have a look at the company webpage, it goes over all their busnesses (including Pan Am Flight Academy)

I guess it's a matter of opinion, but I personally think learning the airline proceedures right from the start is better than having to learn them later and unlearn the GA ones. I want to also have the same quality of training throughout my training.

So you could always get your private somewhere else and then goto Pan Am, I think some people do that.
 

Snow

'Not a new member'
yes Mav, I've read your posts, in summey your complaints seem to be, you didn't like the schduleing and the check rides were too hard and it's too expensive.

Well I would argue the harder checkrides make you a better pilot. Sure FBOs are cheaper and have easier checkrides, but are you getting the same quality of training? I would think not. As for schduleing, that doesn't bother me, I'm there to become a pilot, not to go visit friends or party on the weekends.

Although on the other hand it seems all that negitives about Pan Am are coming from AZ and the positives are coming from FL. So maybe FL is a good school and AZ is not. I dunno, is there anyone out there currently attending or have good stuff to say about the Pheonix campus?
 
G

Guest

Guest
There is a lot of good things about az. The planes, the facitlity and the girls in scottsdale.
The weird thing about this campus is that there is a general feeling that "there are some things that really suck, but if I say anything it will be 100 times worse." there are a ton of people who view this site who are afraid to post because they are afraid of being marked for destruction. I don't actually know if this is true or not, but i can tell you that there is definately a fear of it running through the minds of most people that have been here for any amount of time.
I haven't personally seen it happen, but I have to assume that this idea comes from somewhere other than everyone's imagination.
 

Derg

New Arizona, Il Duce/Warlord
Staff member
Huh?

Post away, I welcome it.

The only people on earth that can see your IP address, where you log in from or anything else identifiable is me.

And I'm probably the biggest privacy advocate in the galaxy so your anonymity is safe.

Besides, I'm a gossip hound!
 
G

Guest

Guest
You see Doug,

they have people snooping around. It is part of this huge conspiracy.

Doug, I am sure you have posted this before but if you don't mind, i am interested in hearing how your career got underway from school to Delta.
 

Derg

New Arizona, Il Duce/Warlord
Staff member
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
Doug, I am sure you have posted this before but if you don't mind, i am interested in hearing how your career got underway from school to Delta.

[/ QUOTE ]

 
G

Guest

Guest
Hey,
If you think Pan Am is shafting you, check out ATP. They are cheaper and faster.
Don't know about their reputation.

I know at least 15 guys who will leave in a drop of a hat if their reputation checks out.
 

Snow

'Not a new member'
maybe, but I think Pan Am and ATA are the only ones to give CRJ sim training. That's somthing I definatly want to do so I'm not overwelmed when it comes to an 737 sim or somthing interview checkride with the airlines
 
G

Guest

Guest
Well hell, get all your ratings at ATP and come back for ACE. you still spend about 20 k less on training (actual not published) and you save about 10k in living expenses.
 
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