I'm out

I ma happy that you have come up with a conclusion, i wish you all the best no matter what you do. I would stay alittle bit more and get some hours and then move on. You never no, two years later everything may change and you may also change your decision.
Anyways all the good luck to you, hopefuly you'll stay on the site so we can use some of your experiences to get ahead.
 
John,

Want to trade positions? You can be a miserable attorney and I'll be a miserable flight instructor. The grass is always greener, I'm told. Starbucks is ripe with philosophy Ph.Ds (at least it was in Ann Arbor), and you probably already know this, but constitutional law is a tremendously difficult field to enter. Hope you have a 4.0 GPA, 175 LSAT, get into Yale Law, make law review, and get a Supreme Court clerkship. Family life as an attorney??Sorry...I'm trying to keep from spewing coffee out my nose while laughing. Good luck, man.
 
One of my former TWA new hire classmates was a patent attorney. He did not like it much.

As a matter of fact...another classmate had been a family practice physician. He washed out of training though, wasn't around very long. Supposedly, he couldn't land the 727 very well. The training there was very difficult.
 
John,
I was in a very similar position a year and a half ago. I had just started working at an excellent flight school with great co-workers and bosses, but a month in I hated it. The stress of dealing with students for long hours 6-7 days a week, the low pay, and the lack of time and energy to do the things I really liked made me want to pack it up and go to grad school. I decided to give it three months to see how it worked out, though, and a year and a half later I had almost 1500 more hours of excellent experience to show for it.

At the end of my time instructing, I had gotten job offers that covered the spectrum of flying pretty well--one corporate, a 135 operation, and two airlines. I chose one of the airlines, which was a huge gamble that didn't pay off. I'll be flying an excellent airplane for a great airline, but I'm based 2000 miles away from my girlfriend and seat-locked for at least 10 months.

I don't know how long I'll be able to pull off the airline lifestyle, but because I stuck with instructing I'll have at a least a decent chance at finding a more suitable flying job. Although instructing was a hard lifestyle for me, I'm incredibly glad I stayed with it. I don't think that I had a very good perspective on what I really wanted at the time I wanted to quit. That being said, it sounds like you've thought things through pretty thoroughly, although my perspective certainly changed when I saw how excited my students were after soloing and passing checkrides.

-Zach
 
Wow, alright a lot to reply to. I guess I'll go and answer some specific people first and then answer some general questions.

Kristie - Finances are actually something I'm taking into consideration here very much. Rent is a lot cheaper on my parents couch than it is in Jersey. At least until April, I was going to be paying about $750 a month with the room mate I found out there. I was looking for about 3 weeks, but he was the only guy I could come up with. After that who know's, it could have been the same or less, but I'm not the kind of guy that likes to make bets on being able to find a cheap room.

I'll tell you that week of sitting on the couch with no students and no pay gave me a lot of time to think (40 hours and some change) about what I want to do with my life, and I realized that this career isn't going to give me what I want out to life. Even when I look to the end of this career, it still looks like it sucks to me. That's a real kick in the pants, and I had some time to really dwell on that.

Further I'm trying to not screw the FBO by getting a few months down the road, finally accepting things and then hosing a bunch of students. I have no students, and hence neither students nor the FBO have any liability in me. I figure it's better to be up front and honest now than tell them this a few months down the road when it WILL be a problem.

Ok some general things.

-There seems to be this idea that I'm scared of this change with my life with moving to Jersey, but it seems obviously evident to me that the real big change here is me not wanting to pursue this career and I'm alright with that fact. Moving to the east coast isn't a huge deal for me. Sure, Jersey seems weird and I don't feel like I fit in, but I felt the same way about college (I grew up in a town of 2,500 people and moved to a town with like 120,000 people in for college, talk about culture shock!). Simply said, it's just taken me some time and some experiences to realize that this career isn't going to give me what I want out of life.

-I'm not getting out of flying. The topic of this thread, "I'm out," refered to me pulling myself out of the career track. I'm just not interested in retiring doing this. Again, hard to explain all this without the nitty gritty details of my life.

-Ryan you're a taint. And you're training was great! This has so little to do with the FBO I was with, moving, or anything else like that. It has to do with this career as a whole and the end result still not being what I deem to be acceptable to me as far as pay and quality of life go. Oh speaking of, the pay doesn't mean much to me; I'm going to be poor getting started in ANY career, just kind of a fact of life.

-And I didn't do that great in my undergraduate work. I graduated with a 2.9 overall, but I plan to destroy the LSAT (I'm fairly confident in my ability to do so) and if I don't? I'll go to a low level masters program and 4.0 it there, then give myself a better shot at moving on. To be honest, I didn't take my undergraduate years very seriously (as many have done) and I won't be getting into a top 10 law school or philosophy program. I'm cool with that, I'll just have to start a little lower on the totem pole.

Thanks for all the well wishing AND the critiques everybody. I appreciate that ya'll are so critical of everything, all the time. Seriously! It really makes me think before I make posts on here. I'm just trying to make as much of a response fo ya'll as I can. I figure ya'll have spent time thinking about my situation long enough to reply and that deserves a response, so don't think i'm trying to back talk anybody; I just like to make things as clear as possible! Also thanks to everybody that's called me up in the last day to make sure I'm alright, I really appreciate it.

Also, I'm trying to figure out which one of you know a CHQ first officer based in Buffalo. He won't tell me who knows him, but he called me up a few minutes ago and was like "John what are ya doing here," and I haven't told him anything yet.

Oh and lastly, just remember; NOTHING IS F***ED! I'll keep flying, I'm keeping my options open, I might come back to this career later, but I've realized that there ARE indeed other things that make me happy in life and it's not always flying. For the time being, I almost have to flight instruct simply beacuse I don't know how to do anything else. I mean seriously, I graduated with a degree in...philosophy.
 
Windchill said:
And I think to myself ... in the end I may be able to enjoy aviation more as a hobby than if it were my job.
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:yeahthat: Good luck in all you do brotha J. My thinking goes along that line above. I love to fly and want to keep that love without mucking it up. Seems like you're doing the same thing:rawk:
 
It's all about instant gratification these days !
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If instant gratification is getting to watch my son smile, laugh, and enjoy himself because his mom can afford to stay home and spend all day with him .... and because dad's not at the airport all day, all week ... then sure it is, and well worth it.

For those who persue the dream ... I applaud you. It's a pursuit that takes time, money, stress, etc. ... without much gratitude at the end. For those who pursue the dream with kids, spouses, etc. I really applaud you, the sacrifices increase dramatically ... but I've always been a believer in follow your heart.

For me, my heart is to provide my family with the best that I can ... and I don't think that route is via a flying career. For me I will resign to $100 Hamburger hops with the family ... and I'm sure I'll love every moment of it.



John ... as a philosophy major, surely there's a book to be written and published concerning your experience. That could bring in some income. And you don't have to skirt around the issue ... we all know you just got tired of New Jersey ... not many people like it :D
 
Windchill said:
If instant gratification is getting to watch my son smile, laugh, and enjoy himself because his mom can afford to stay home and spend all day with him .... and because dad's not at the airport all day, all week ... then sure it is, and well worth it.
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The instant gratification I was referring to is not wanting to "work your way up" the ladder and earning less now to earn more later.

Being with and supporting your family, is, IMO, a 'grown-up's' #1 job. That's what we're here for!

I can't stand to be away from home either, and I have only been gone 3 nights so far this month, and only been at work about 8 days. And all I have to miss is a girlfriend and a dog!

~wheelsup
 
I wouldn't mind working my way up if I didn't have the family. I'm a believer in the "pay your dues" theory with any sort of career, pursuit, etc.
 
John, take it from a person who has experienced exactly what you're going through. When I landed my first flight instructor job in Baltimore, I sat on the couch as the new instructor and watched all the other instructors there getting students. I was very vocal in the fact that I am putting in the time and I believe I deserve students too. I was told to be patient and I will get students.

I got tired of waiting for students so I advertised and became a savy instructor. I brought in five students on my own and began to earn a paycheck. When the opportunity presented itself for me to go to work for ATP, I left the Baltimore flight school and went to Jacksonville. I didn't just burn that bridge, I set my explosives under it and blew that bridge to kingdom come. My year and a half at my first job was horrific. The people who owned the flight school were upset with me because I didn't kiss their a$$. The other instructors there did kiss a$$ and they worked everyday. Fast forward to my time at ATP and most everyone knows what happened too me there.

So far, two instructor jobs and not one of them panned out. I hung in there because nobody is going to deny me this career that I have worked so hard, and sacrificed so much for. I just started a new job in PA which I commute to every day. I am extremely happy with my new employer and my fellow co-worker instructors. I have been there for two months and am now working with three students. I fly everyday that weather permits. In this time I actually learned something which has been helpfull too me. Nobody owes me anything, and this career is what I make of it. I decided to be patient, and not be so opinionated. I keep my mouth shut and do what I need to do to build time. I realized that I can't just move into a new company and set the world on fire as the new kid on the block.

Since I have accepted this, my life has been easier and I am flying more. John, you can't expect to walk right in and have twenty students handed too you. Don't throw this opportunity away because you spent a week on the couch. Remember, nobody owes you anything. Your current place of employment may not be right for you at this time. New Jersey is expensive, but I would stick it out for as long as you financially can. If it makes more sense to move on, then do so.

Good luck man. See if you can go to Sierra Academy, or get on with ATP.
 
John, best of luck with whatever you decide and all future decisions.

If I said that there weren't times in college that I wasn't ready to quit, I'd be lying. In fact, I graduated thinking "Great, now I guess I'm going back to college"
 
Please, please, don't work for ATP! They're horrible!
Don't ask the current employees on here- they're too afraid to tell the truth because they know management reads this board. But ask any former employee and you'll hear, across the board, how bad it is.
You can get multi time lots of places- it's not worth living like a dog.
 
CapnJim said:
Please, please, don't work for ATP! They're horrible!
Don't ask the current employees on here- they're too afraid to tell the truth because they know management reads this board. But ask any former employee and you'll hear, across the board, how bad it is.
You can get multi time lots of places- it's not worth living like a dog.
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I instructed for ATP in Chicago from May '05 - Dec '05 and I disagree with you. Working for ATP was indeed stressful and living in Chicago off $1200 a month was difficult but working conditions weren't "horrible" and I certainly didn't live or work "like a dog." Generally, the busiest times were the last 2-3 weeks of each summer month which were filled with 12-14 hour days but I was flying 4-8 hours each day. The rest of the time I usually had 2-3 days off a week to go visit the fiancee in another state. I had a steady supply of customers while working there. I flew a meager 25 hours in September yet I still made $1200. I instructed in well-maintained aircraft. Things broke regularly and a call to maintenance almost always ended with "We'll overnight you the part and have Lumanair install it tomorrow morning." I'm sure HQ monitored my pass rate and I was definately worried about it while working there, however I ran the entire location with the other instructor our way. No direct day-by-day supervision/scrutiny by a boss or chief pilot. With my career students and within their availability I was able to set my own hours. I'm sure it's a great pleasure to have a student from day one in their flying career, but I never had to take on the liability of signing off a student pilot. The instruction I provided was multi/instrument which was always challenging, progressive, and fun. All but 2-3 locations have housing provided for instructors for $200/month. Sure you have to share a room but it's fully furnished with washer/dryer and that includes all utilities.

Instructing for ATP is by no means a career in and of itself but it certainly helped to launch mine. Most of the bitching you hear from ATP instructors is exaggeration and venting from the stress of getting people you've never met ready for checkrides in 2-4 days. Personally I think it's amazing that amount of freedom and trust ATP puts into their instructors to run most of their locations.
 
Don't know what to say Brother! Except, a guy's gotta do what a guy's gotta do!

There's more to life than flying 120 passengers from point A to B and there are so many more flying careers then just the airlines... you realized it and good for you.

Making laps around the patch in a champ, doing it because it's fun and loving every second of it, that's a great option. Fly because it's what you want to do not because you have to, while still having another career you enjoy to earn you the living you want is a good plan. I'm with ya there!
 
I know a lawyer who paints his fingernails black, has multiple piercings and is a "goth". A patent attorney in Atlanta!
 
Doug Taylor said:
I know a lawyer who paints his fingernails black, has multiple piercings and is a "goth". A patent attorney in Atlanta!
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He didn't outgrow his Goth thing? How can anybody take someone like this serious? What kind of judge would allow an attorney to come to court with his fingernails black, and multiple piercings?
 
CapnJim said:
Please, please, don't work for ATP! They're horrible!
Don't ask the current employees on here- they're too afraid to tell the truth because they know management reads this board. But ask any former employee and you'll hear, across the board, how bad it is.
You can get multi time lots of places- it's not worth living like a dog.
Click to expand...

I will say it, although I am no longer a contractor. ATP is horrible to work for. The D.E. in Jacksonville has a Napolean Complex, and the cheif instructor has flashbacks from Nam when flying with students. This same cheif instructor poked my students earcups. He went so far as to tell a student who was about to do his first solo that the student was going to die in a plane. Can you imagine what was going through the students head as this person said this on his way out the door of the airplane?

What purpose is served to say this to someone who is already nervous enough?
 
Not to bring this post too much off topic, but don't patent attorneys need some type of a technical degree?
 
bob loblaw said:
He didn't outgrow his Goth thing? How can anybody take someone like this serious? What kind of judge would allow an attorney to come to court with his fingernails black, and multiple piercings?
Click to expand...

It's pretty simple.

The piercings come out, he takes off the nail polish and cleans up pretty well!

Even scarier, his 'goth' wife helped designed the FADEC on the F-23.
 
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