I need an ATP 709 checkride

B

balrog

New Member
OK, here's the deal: I messed up in an airliner. No one was hurt, but the fault was mine as was revealed by the FDR. I own this mistake and want to continue with my career, but the FAA says I can keep all of my licenses and ratings after I successfully complete a 709 checkride.

So I thought it would be easy to just go to an ATP flight school franchise where the weather's nice and pound this out in a reasonably quick amount of time, but they have told me that they "don't have a program for me". Apparently it has to do with having an FAA inspector (NOT a DPE) doing the examination.

So this widens my search. Surely there are a LOT of FBO's that would be willing to take my money for an instructor and a light twin, but this is my career we are talking about, not just an MEL rating.

So I need some advice. Where can I go to get this done? I am looking for an instructor and school that has LOTS of experience with ATP level training in a light multi-twin where the weather does not absolutely suck at this time of year(November). There must be a favorable school/FAA relationship and the price needs to be reasonable. I balk at anything over $3,000 but, of course, am willing to pay what it will take.

Any suggestions?
 
What part of the country are you in?
Do you have to do the entire ATP ride, or just show competency in a particular area?
I only am asking because it would help define what you are looking for. I have nothing. (Except maybe a curiosity as to what led to your problem)
 
That's most unfortunate. Sorry to hear that. This time of year, South Florida has excellent VFR weather, and there are training airports every few miles.

If you don't mind, what did you mess up?
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Correct. Companies can use FDR data for their own purposes if there isn't contractual language to prevent it, but the FAA can not discipline you based on FDR data. Talk to a good aviation attorney.
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Even if they are investigating an accident?

It was my understanding that a 709 ride is not discipline anyway, the FAA can give one if they think it was possible that any sort of pilot deficiency may have contributed to the incident in any way. Correct me if I am wrong, but engine failures/electrical failures/etc often result in 709 rides, even though the failure is not necessarily the fault of the pilot.
 
drunkenbeagle said:
Even if they are investigating an accident?
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The FDR data can be used by the NTSB to determine the probable cause and contributing factors, but FDR data cannot be used by the FAA to take certificate action against a pilot.

Correct me if I am wrong, but engine failures/electrical failures/etc often result in 709 rides, even though the failure is not necessarily the fault of the pilot.
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I've never heard of a 709 being issued except in the most serious of circumstances where the proficiency of the pilot was in serious doubt.
 
1)I would PM ATN_Pilot with more info. There is very little he hasn't seen or had to deal with.
2)Don't post any more info online.
 
drunkenbeagle said:
Correct me if I am wrong, but engine failures/electrical failures/etc often result in 709 rides, even though the failure is not necessarily the fault of the pilot.
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Tons of people have taken out engines/props/taxiway lights and such at AMF and I have yet to hear about them getting a 709 ride.
 
5-1418 GENERAL.

A. Authority. Under Title 49 of the United States Code (49 U.S.C.) § 44709 (formerly § 609 of the Federal Aviation Act of 1958 (FA Act)), the Administrator is authorized to reexamine any airman at any time. Reexamination of an airman does not hinder the taking of punitive enforcement action when appropriate. When an airman fails to comply with a request for reexamination, 49 U.S.C. § 44709 provides legal procedures to be followed to enforce reinspection or reexamination. Detailed information on the enforcement aspects is found in Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) Order 2150.3, FAA Compliance and Enforcement Program.
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I don't think the FAA considers a 709 ride to be punitive action, or a certificate action (though it can lead to certificate action).

I don't know of any reason why the NTSB wouldn't share FDR data with an FAA accident inspection if they asked for it.
 
If it's a newer gen airplane there are many sources to pull way more detailed data than a FDR, and one MUST have contractual language and FOQA to keep the data sacred.

Things like; QAR, FADEC, CMC, airplane health monitoring and such.

That being said, we had a couple guys do a 709 and it was done in the company sim, on the aircraft type they were qualified on.
 
If you do have to do a 709 ride, dimes to dollars, you have to do a PC or such get get line qualified again.

Have a fed ( poi maybe?) sit in and do it for free
 
drunkenbeagle said:
I don't think the FAA considers a 709 ride to be punitive action, or a certificate action (though it can lead to certificate action).

I don't know of any reason why the NTSB wouldn't share FDR data with an FAA accident inspection if they asked for it.
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I would say the whole "take the checkride or lose your certificates" is a certificate action.
 
Get yourself an aviation attorney before you communicate any further with the feds. This is always step one when facing something this serious. You said you screwed the pooch in an airliner. I assume you are a union member? Don't they have union reps in place to advise you on legal matters like this? Is it possible to beg the union to allow you to do the 709 ride in your companies sim if that is what you are proficient in?
 
1. I don't want to reveal what I did or where I am. I am still reeling by the utter stupidity of my actions.
2. There is nothing I can contest about the facts of the case.
3. The quoted info about a 709 ride is correct. They can demand one without the FDR data. The FDR simply revealed to me what I did and did not do in the panic of the moment.
4. I am not protected by a union. My company has fired me. I no longer have the option of requalifying in a sim.
5. My original post was to request a recommendation on a quality place that could train me in a light twin to ATP standards at a reasonable price. Yes, a local FBO would work, but I would like a quality instructor with ATP and Multi- experience.
6. No, I don't need a sign off. And the content of the checkride will be determined by the inspector conducting the checkride.

Go ahead and speculate about the Feds and lawyers all you want, but if I refuse the 709, I lose my license.

Does anyone have a recommendation for a good school that can train me in a light twin for an ATP checkride conducted by the FAA?
 
drunkenbeagle said:
Even if they are investigating an accident?

It was my understanding that a 709 ride is not discipline anyway, the FAA can give one if they think it was possible that any sort of pilot deficiency may have contributed to the incident in any way. Correct me if I am wrong, but engine failures/electrical failures/etc often result in 709 rides, even though the failure is not necessarily the fault of the pilot.
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If you read united states code 44-709 you will find that a 709 ride is not an option when a pilot is involved in an accident. And, it is not an enforcement action, so the cvr can be used in proving your fault and the determination if a 709 is required. I speak from experience. Also a 709 ride should generally be specific to an area of operation(s) that are related to the accident itself. If you are an atp you shouldnt need any prep. Once the 709 is successfully completed, there is no enforcement action on your record. You will have the 709 on your record and after 2 years it drops off. (Assuming you pass)
 
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