I made my decision

777forever said:
How many different states have you flown through? Have you flown from LA to JAX back to LA all IFR flight plans, no autopilot, no electric trim, with plenty of IMC along the way?
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I don't have an instrument rating, and I haven't flown out of the state of California (not really). Out of curiosity, what qualifications would I have to have in order for you to listen to anything I say?

Are you kidding? Did you not read the long post I just did? These guys had more IMC time in one cross country then I have in my logbook. Over a 90 day period of constant flying do you think it won't get windy one day? Especially if you fly coast to coast? I think not.
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A couple of cross-country trips is without a doubt a great experience. Unfortunately, for a lot of these guys it's their *only* experience outside of sitting with an instructor. I guess the "high-timers" actually get a couple hundred hours of dual given, but it seems like ATP is trying to get rid of that obstacle as well with their "RJ standards course". And my point stands: I saw a ton of ATP guys in Sacramento who finished with very little real-world flying experience, messed up IFR procedures consistently, and couldn't land a 172 to save their life.

Some people think, hey it should be fun to learn how to fly a plane without waiting 2 yrs to get your stuff done.
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Of course there are. Don't for a second assume, though, that anyone who makes it through ATP is automatically some hardass Iceman, and don't think that just because someone doesn't choose ATP they're any less of a pilot.

I think that ATP is a fine school, but it absolutely does not work for everybody, just like any given FBO won't be perfect for every student as well. I want to make sure that the newbies on here understand that despite all the cheerleading for one route or the other, they are ultimately responsible for their flight education. In the long run, it's their attitude and work ethic that counts, and airlines aren't going to care if they went to Billy Joe Bob's Flaht Skewl and Nudie Bar or the Harvard of the Skies.
 
Hey 777forever,


How cool are your buddies on that Citation ride huh? Where did they go?Florida? How was your best friend's girlfriend? Did they get to hold the yoke at FL350? WOW that's fun!! How many students on that ride?

Seriously now, I have a friend who passed on that Citation ride because he though it was ridiculous!!
4 or 5 students on the same flight to Florida because the owner wanned to go visit his girl. And the guys that held the controls for 20min after the plane was already in cruise though they were SOO COOL..:rotfl: You gotta laugh!!! I'm sorry man but that's a rip off!

ask your buddies at ATP if they know how to fly the round gauges...ask if they know how to fly to a VOR without reverse sensing...or to hold at a certain fix without a GPS.

Better yet don't ask them rent a plane without a GPS and go fly with them one of those x/c's you talking about.


Have fun!

Good luck!
 
eagledriver101 said:
Thanks, I cant log time in his plane, PIC or SIC, + he's no CFI... I have about 15 hrs in it but cant log it. Secondly he lives in CA and comes down twice a year.
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You have a PPL right? Get a ME rating so you can log your future flights w/ your uncle! A few trips to Cali would still be WAY cheaper then ATP.
 
777forever said:
This doesn't make sense to me. Do most airline captains send their kids to FBOs? You here about them sending their kids to some big flight school. FBO route is good if you are on a budget or can't obtain a large sum loan. It takes longer, holds your hand, and is cheaper. Me personally would rather take the long term loan and get to the airlines quicker then sweat through a 9-5 job while slowly paying for my training cash down at the local FBO. I think the extra money I'll make at the end of my career by getting in years sooner will surplus the loan amount by far. But thats just me, I hate working a jobs I don't like. Still, I don't understand how FBOing makes you a more rounded pilot.
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Well, my uncle is a senior captain with AA and when I started training he recommended the FBO route. He was pretty shocked when I told him how much some of these big schools/academies are, as he should be. They're a ripoff.

FBOs hold your hand? I don't think so... The thing about going through FBOs is this you are responsible for your own training. The amount of money and the knowledge you learn is directly controlled by you.

I can guarantee I saw more at 250 hours than anyone going through those schools... I've seen (and personally dealt with as a pilot) thunderstorms and hurricanes in FL, I've froze my butt off scraping ice off airplanes in Colorado, I've felt what it's like to do a takeoff out of a 9,927 ft altitude airport, I've done real soft field landings on grass stips, I've flown across the country (twice), I've done far more aerobatics than were necessary to get my spin endorsement, etc. Why? Because nobody is holding my hand and telling me what to do. I'm not stuck doing all of my training in Central FL.

The best part? I saved thousands and thousands of dollars doing it.
 
It's not the school, it is the instructor. You can go to the best school and end up with the worst instructor. You could also go to the worst school but get assigned to the best instructor. Another thing is that a good instructor for one person is an aweful instructor for the next guy. Everyone has there own learning styles and personality profiles.
 
wrxpilot said:
Well, my uncle is a senior captain with AA and when I started training he recommended the FBO route. He was pretty shocked when I told him how much some of these big schools/academies are, as he should be. They're a ripoff.

FBOs hold your hand? I don't think so... The thing about going through FBOs is this you are responsible for your own training. The amount of money and the knowledge you learn is directly controlled by you.

I can guarantee I saw more at 250 hours than anyone going through those schools... I've seen (and personally dealt with as a pilot) thunderstorms and hurricanes in FL, I've froze my butt off scraping ice off airplanes in Colorado, I've felt what it's like to do a takeoff out of a 9,927 ft altitude airport, I've done real soft field landings on grass stips, I've flown across the country (twice), I've done far more aerobatics than were necessary to get my spin endorsement, etc. Why? Because nobody is holding my hand and telling me what to do. I'm not stuck doing all of my training in Central FL.

The best part? I saved thousands and thousands of dollars doing it.
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hmm, just a different style of flying maybe, ATP trains you to be an airline pilot, not a bush pilot. After ATP, you may not not be able land a Cessna, but I can guarantee you that ATP grads will will be able to out fly you in twin, I betcha he has done more arrivals, DP's, SID's, land at bigger airports, and do complexed GPS approaches, On my cross counties sometimes we would turn off the GPS and do arrivals, back-courses, etc. with the VOR's, no big deal. anyone who has problems with VORs will NOT make it through ATP. Ive got tons of IMC time, ATP also has a great 3 day CRM course that most schools dont have. Trust me, my instructor at my FBO I dont think as ever flown an arrival, and probably would not feel comfortable going to Dallas TX.

The best part is? ATP can actually save you money. EVERYTHING including, housing, hotels, books, charts, Taxi cabs, airline tickets if you happen to get caught in bad weather, etc. is included in the price. Most other schools you price are only counting flight time when they give you an estimate. ATP saved me money, my job I had was 2k a month, the average time it takes to do all your ratings is what? 9 months? so 6 months longer at 2 k a month = a savings of 12,000 dollars. (in 9 months he will be an experianced CFI with 600 hours TT? vs the "superior" 250 hour pilot your talking about.

So many pilot here think ATP = fast = bad because it took himself slow, which = good, because they = a great pilot. If you ever worked at ATP you'll get sob stories about how this FBO ripped you off, or this academy ripped you off. But I only heard 2-3 guys in my time at ATP complain about the overall program at ATP. the only people (majority of the time) you see complaining about ATP are the pilots that never went through ATP.
 
Pilot2087 said:
hmm, just a different style of flying maybe, ATP trains you to be an airline pilot, not a bush pilot. After ATP, you may not not be able land a Cessna, but I can guarantee you that ATP grads will will be able to out fly you in twin, I betcha he has done more arrivals, DP's, SID's, land at bigger airports, and do complexed GPS approaches, On my cross counties sometimes we would turn off the GPS and do arrivals, back-courses, etc. with the VOR's, no big deal. anyone who has problems with VORs will NOT make it through ATP. Ive got tons of IMC time, ATP also has a great 3 day CRM course that most schools dont have. Trust me, my instructor at my FBO I dont think as ever flown an arrival, and probably would not feel comfortable going to Dallas TX.
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I considered going to ATP for a couple of ratings, and even went as far as getting a loan approval (Sallie Mae, scary interest rate and I have an excellent credit rating!). Two different CFIs from ATP called me up to get me interested... They were nice, but pretty clueless. They didn't understand much about other avenues of professional aviation (like Part 135), and were definitely used to talking to starry eyed pilots wanting to fly RJs.

My experience goes beyond bush flying. Doing mountain flying is only part of what I've experienced... I got my PPL in south FL and have flown all over Miami class B, I've flown into (and landed) at KFLL, I've experienced all the customs paperwork and procedures required for an international flight into the Bahamas, I've flown all over Denver class B airspace while getting my instrument rating, and I got my commercial certificate at Van Nuys dealing with hyper busy southern CA airspace. I've done actual approaches in extremely busy areas like southern CA and Denver, and I've flown IFR across the country twice (KBJC - F45). So yes, I'm a little familiar with flying STARS, DPs, and flying into busy airports. I only have 280 hrs and in still wet multi rating, but there's nobody with 280 hrs that is proficient in a multi - unless that's all you trained in.

I admit ATP types could probably run circles around me when it comes to GPS and glass... When I did my instrument rating all we did were NDB/VOR/LOC approaches and ILS approaches on steam gauges. I wanted to develop the situational awareness that you don't get by following a line on a screen. I'm now working on approaches using the GNS 430, as I feel it's an appropriate time to become familiar with that technology.

As far as problems with VORs, anybody that's passed their PPL should not have any problems with VORs. It shouldn't be considered some kind of amazing ability of skill at all. I'm more impressed by somebody that can get from point A to B with a map and compass anyway.
 
wrxpilot said:
I admit ATP types could probably run circles around me when it comes to GPS and glass...
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I never touched a glass cockpit airplane until I finished ATP and started instructing at the local FBO in Denver. Now that is about all I fly at the FBO I teach at here in SoCal.

Is glass part of the 90-day training at ATP now? I know they have the 430 in the plane and I believe that is considered TAA but I wouldn't call that a glass cockpit.

We may not have done much of anything with NDBs at ATP but I sure shot alot of ILS/GPS/LOC/VOR approaches when I was there.
 
After reading most of this thread, any many others like it, I think I have come to a conclusion about comparing ATP to FBOs...

ATP is one school and everyone knows their flaws or can figure them out fairly easily. Only fly one type of airplane really, little to no solo time, getting expensive, program too fast for some's likes, don't get the exact time quoted, yadda yadda... It is easy to pick on them because they are in the business of doing one thing in a industry that has typically been more encompassing with their training philosophy.

There are many, many FBOs out there that have all sorts of flaws and all sort of good qualities too. The problem with the FBOs is that when someone talks about one that they love or have used, the flaws at that particular school isn't a problem for that one person and they are not brought up and the school usually remains nameless as not too many people know about it unless you live in that area. Usually only the good points are focused on. Most local flight schools just aren't able to stay in business that long either thus usually keeping the "local FBO" a nameless entity and just talked about as a local FBO. For the most part, none of them get large enough to branch out around the country and have the reputation that ATP does.

I have been at a great local flight school, it is called McAir Aviation and located in Denver at BJC. Is it perfect? No, it has some flaws, but depending on what is going on in your life it may be the perfect setting to do your flight training, it also may not work for you at all. Same goes for ATP and nearly every school out there.

Local flight schools have to cater to every type of person that wants to learn anything about flying. Career pilots, wanna be airline pilots, weekend pilots, the old guy that always wanted to try it, Joe's wife wants to surprise him on his birthday, that kind of stuff. ATP is not the place for the weekend type of pilot who has another career and just wants to fly for fun, or to supplement his business. ATP is designed to start a career as an airline pilot.

That being said... Daaaayyyummm, $50 Gs for the 90-day!?!?!

Yikes, but it is still the fastest and probably cheapest and most SAFE* way to an airline career if you stick with them and instruct for them.

*SAFE: No one ever really talks about safety at many of these schools. Can't go wrong at ATP in that category.
 
When you're getting all that ME IFR Cross country experience, don't forget to NOT log the safety pilot time if you get in the clouds. It ain't legal...
 
DE727UPS said:
When you're getting all that ME IFR Cross country experience, don't forget to NOT log the safety pilot time if you get in the clouds. It ain't legal...
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:yeahthat:(seriously)

Also... if you see a banana peel... it's best to walk around it. Don't chance slipping on it. That would hurt... :nana2:

;)
 
DE727UPS said:
When you're getting all that ME IFR Cross country experience, don't forget to NOT log the safety pilot time if you get in the clouds. It ain't legal...
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That's why we kept the hood on when we flew through clouds ;)

Seriously though, it was easier to leave the foggle shades on at times. Popping in and out of the clouds screwed me up sometimes.
 
wrxpilot said:
I considered going to ATP for a couple of ratings, and even went as far as getting a loan approval (Sallie Mae, scary interest rate and I have an excellent credit rating!). Two different CFIs from ATP called me up to get me interested... They were nice, but pretty clueless. They didn't understand much about other avenues of professional aviation (like Part 135), and were definitely used to talking to starry eyed pilots wanting to fly RJs.

My experience goes beyond bush flying. Doing mountain flying is only part of what I've experienced... I got my PPL in south FL and have flown all over Miami class B, I've flown into (and landed) at KFLL, I've experienced all the customs paperwork and procedures required for an international flight into the Bahamas, I've flown all over Denver class B airspace while getting my instrument rating, and I got my commercial certificate at Van Nuys dealing with hyper busy southern CA airspace. I've done actual approaches in extremely busy areas like southern CA and Denver, and I've flown IFR across the country twice (KBJC - F45). So yes, I'm a little familiar with flying STARS, DPs, and flying into busy airports. I only have 280 hrs and in still wet multi rating, but there's nobody with 280 hrs that is proficient in a multi - unless that's all you trained in.

I admit ATP types could probably run circles around me when it comes to GPS and glass... When I did my instrument rating all we did were NDB/VOR/LOC approaches and ILS approaches on steam gauges. I wanted to develop the situational awareness that you don't get by following a line on a screen. I'm now working on approaches using the GNS 430, as I feel it's an appropriate time to become familiar with that technology.

As far as problems with VORs, anybody that's passed their PPL should not have any problems with VORs. It shouldn't be considered some kind of amazing ability of skill at all. I'm more impressed by somebody that can get from point A to B with a map and compass anyway.
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Actually the majority of the training isn't done with Glass cockpits, The Cessna's and the Seminoles have the 6 pack, and the Seminoles have the GNS 430. The diamonds have the glass cockpit, but it isn't used much. What I liked about ATP was that like every flight was to a new airport. In one day I was in 3 different class B airports, 2 different countries, 4 different states, just me and another student, no instructor on board in a twin, and getting IMC time. That's what I call crazy. Or the time, me and my flight partner took out 2 Seminoles in the middle of the night to have a Short field competition. (he won, stopped the Seminole before the 500 foot markers) Every time I see a Seminole, I miss them days.

only 6 months ago I was a private pilot, a couple days ago a corporate gig offered me a FO position in a king air (which I turned down) If I wouldve went through my FBO route, I would still be doing circles working on my instrument rating. Now Im instructing, and loving it.
I dont think one school is better then the other, just depends on your style. I paid 45k for all my ratings and expenses, which seemed to be pretty good for me, It allowed me to work longer in construction and being able to do it fast, without me having to get a Bank Loan.
 
Timbuff10 said:
That's why we kept the hood on when we flew through clouds ;)

Seriously though, it was easier to leave the foggle shades on at times. Popping in and out of the clouds screwed me up sometimes.
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My flight partner would leave the hood on in the clouds, I thought he was crazy. Missing half the fun. :rolleyes:

(Still cant log it even if you have it on)
 
You know what amazes me with these discussions is that we've seasoned pilots trying their hardest to impart some knowledge and all we get back is that we don't know what we're talking about.

You wanna go to ATP? Sweet, go to ATP. But don't come on here talking about how Jesus went to ATP and if you don't go to ATP you're obviously a ###### pilot. Or Riddle. Or Western. Or Sierra. Or Skymates. Or name any other school.

You'd think I was a tool that couldn't fly a plane out of a wet paper bag, but I trained the FBO route, got my instrument rating in a slant alpha Cessna 172 in a non radar environment where we had to fly NDB approaches because that's all there were. I'll tell you those fundamentals really paid off, and there is some concern that you won't get those at ATP or other schools like it. The youngins might say you don't need to know that crap anymore, but the folks that have been around a little while know better.

Heck, to be honest with you I've seen Riddle grads that pretty much suck at life and when you tell them to simply fly the plane they look at you with this confused look on their face and say, "But...my profile's set! Why isn't it working!?"
 
jtrain609 said:
You know what amazes me with these discussions is that we've seasoned pilots trying their hardest to impart some knowledge and all we get back is that we don't know what we're talking about.

You wanna go to ATP? Sweet, go to ATP. But don't come on here talking about how Jesus went to ATP and if you don't go to ATP you're obviously a ###### pilot. Or Riddle. Or Western. Or Sierra. Or Skymates. Or name any other school.
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Here's the thing...

eagledriver came on here with the first post in this thread and said that he'd made he had done his research and made his decision. He didn't say ATP was the second coming... he just stated that he found it to be a good choice for him and that he was excited about it.

Then... and this is where it started going downhill... he asked the "pro's" what their thoughts on the program was.

Maybe his post would have been best served in the "member's announcements" forum. But... basically from what I've read he's been backed into a corner defending his decision from "seasoned" pilots telling him he's wrong, it's a bad choice, he'll be in debt forever, they did it better, they don't like the program, etc.

Kudo's to eagledriver for putting up with it without loosing his cool and defending his decision that he made based on his research and individual situation... he did after all open the "pandora's box" by asking everyone their opinion.

Bob
 
eagledriver101 said:
One thing I don't get is... I know 50k is a lot, but ppls spend twice that for school. My work paid for mine, so if you think about it, I got a college education free, and awesome flight training for 50k. So theory would have it, if I was like most collage students who had to pay for it on their own like 2 of my friends which is costing them 22k a year... Its the same thing, and I spent less money. They pulled out 80k loans, and with schools jacking tuition up, they may need more. And I'm only doing 50K with a four year degree...
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I said it before and i'll say it again. Comparing an "education" at ATP and an EDUCATION at a real University is like comparing apples to lobster.

There is no comparison what so ever man, open your eyes. With ATP you are putting your 50K towards one very specific thing; flight training. It has no applicability towards getting a job when you lose your medical in your mid 30's. I mean really. Do you think any one is going to give a crap about you completing ATP?

And with all due respect, stop with the whole "i'm so impressive, I graduated college at just 24 years old"! Yay for me! Guess what? Myself and just about everyone else I know has finished in 4 years (22), not six (24). You don't see the rest of us whacking eachother off.

I'm not trying to sound like an ass bro, but ya sort of have it coming to you. Like someone said earlier. It's your 50k. Spend it how you want. Just dont post for people advice and when you dont like what they have to say, not listen.
 
I don't know. Spending $50K for a $18-20K a year job doesn't make much sense to me. I wouldn't go out and spend $30K for a car that's only worth $15K. And that $50K isn't counting interest, and that's the killer. I'm glad your wife makes bank, so that's good for your situation. Most guys that do this wind up in the hole and hurting. Between my wife and I, we pull in about $30K, and I only borrowed about $15K to get my stuff done. That puts a crunch on us some months, depending on what bills cost what, etc. I can't imagine having to pay $50K worth of loans on even a SECOND year regional FO pay.

If only Skymates had the mega-money advertising budget ATP has, then most people would actually know there is a happy medium between academy style and FBO style....
 
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