I just quit my law practice.

[ready2fly]

Jstevens: I can't give you your answer (but, you're not looking for that), but I will give you my experience:

I, too, did the pre-law thing in college. Graduated, decided to work in the real world to pay down my Private College debt and what better way to do that AND get my "foot in the door" at a law firm than to become a Paralegal.

So, I changed firms a few times - experienced both sides of the coin in litigation (Plaintiff's work and Defendant's work), did Foreclosure law, did Bankruptcy law, Insurance, Med-Mal, yadda yadda yadda....

IF there is is one thing that I could tell you, it was this: I have met hundreds of young attorneys - fresh out of law school - ready to change the world and/or just make the "big bucks" and NOT A ONE OF THEM - not one - was happy with what they were doing - at least for the first -say - five to six years - then, they MAY start to enjoy it or just "settle".

Some of them held on and are now Partners at their firms and making great money - but, they all went through a very, very long period of loathing.

Myself: It took me approximately 6 years to figure out that there was no way in Hell that I'd want to be an attorney. To be general - why deal with people's misery for the rest of my career?

The aviation bug bit me after 4 years of wondering "what next?" and "what do I want to be when I grow up?"... and here I am..... still working as a Paralegal, but training AGRESSIVELY and getting ready to take my PPSEL checkride and have already started ground for the Instrument ticket.

I think your plan of getting your PPSEL while you are still in college is a great idea!! See if it's "for you". If not - at least you'll have a great form of recreation.

That was my $0.04. Good luck.

 

[A300Capt]

I hate to burst your bubble JStevens, but a flying job is ripe with its own set of problems that an outsider just wouldn't understand until they experience it for themselves. This quickly wipes the shine off the aviation apple. And, very few folks make it to a high $$ seat. This may not mean much at 21, but when you get older, trust me on this one, you'll be looking for the big bucks.

A video game could make ditch digging seem fun and glamorous, however, a couple days in the hot sun sweating your arse off will make you think differently.

If you think that flying professionally is just going 500mph from one glamour layover to the next, home every night for dinner and a beautiful home in the suburbs, you'd be taking a very simplistic, and unrealistic, view of the profession.

The road to a professional flying career is long and hard with absolutely no guarantees you'll make it. It may seem like a great adventure at first when you're young but reality has a way of wiping that smile off your face in short order.

You'll probably spend somewhere around $50,000+ up front just to obtain ratings which will let you begin the game. After a few years of training you'll then move on to the hard part, low, or no, paying jobs trying to build your flight time. Just to get to the minimum level to be competitive at an entry level position make take years and require around 1200 hrs flight time. Who's going to pay back your loan(s) when your new CFI job won't buy gas money for your car? Are you prepared to live at below poverty levels for many years?

My advice: Finish law school. It's great backup career. If you really want to do this then work on getting your private pilot's license. You may find that you don't like flying. The world of aviation as change significantly since 9/11. Jobs are few and far between while morale at many airlines is very low. If you can you might want to look at the military route. That may be a viable option.

Knowing what I know now, if I had to do it over again...I wouldn't....and I've got a great job so far as flying is concerned.

 

[JStevens]

My intention in my above post was to not sound blind to the faults of the industry, reading these boards for 5 minutes will certainly reveal those. However, I am aware of the work of the lawyers I am surrounded by, and their job satisfaction isn't exactly soaring. They all hope to move to bigger and brighter things, but who knows if they will ever get to a position that truely delivers satisfaction.

I am not nieve to the lack of glamour of the airline industry, espeacially in these trying times. But, not to sound too optimistic, but economical woes will end, and so will the fear of air travel. The bright side of the equation is that this country is far too large to provide another form of transportation, such as a train. Amtrack is horrible, it is also far to inefficient to use over large distances. Therefore, the need for air travel will forever exist. Perhaps I am wrong in this observation, but you may be suffering from a case of, "The grass is always greener on the other side" syndrome. Please do not read too much into my mentioning of a simulator game, it is merely a cataylst, not the sole reason for my interest.

At present, I have acquired a Jeppesen text book inteneded for use in a Ground School and am reading thorugh its chapters. For whatever reason, the techinical jargon spewed all over the pages is far more appealing than the historical significance of cases built of precedence.....but maybe that is just me.

The good thing is that I am merely 20 years of age, with time still on my side, perhaps I can come to some sound conculsions about where I would like to take my career. Law school is still 2 years away if I decide to pursue that path, but so is training that may ultimately lead to a career with commerical airlines. In which case, I think recieving my seniority number at the age of 25-27 would be extrenely adventageous.

 

[A300Capt]

JStevens,

I realize what you were trying to say. And, I realize some of your comments were "tongue in cheek". I was trying to interject some reality into the equation for you as well as others.

Little off the subject: I've gotten the impression that some of the mid-life career changers on this board (not you) initially have gotten the impression over the last couple years of boom hiring that getting a pilot job is as easy as applying at Diary Queen. Far from it. I hate seeing folks give up perfectly good careers, putting their families through h&ll for what may be nothing more than a pipe dream. There are pros and cons to every career field. All you do is change one set of problems for another.

Your young, soon to be college grad, if not already, with a great GPA and if this is what you want then go for it. You've got plenty of time and could easily make it to the airlines if that's what you choose!


</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
However, I am aware of the work of the lawyers I am surrounded by, and their job satisfaction isn't exactly soaring. They all hope to move to bigger and brighter things, but who knows if they will ever get to a position that truely delivers satisfaction.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's my point! Just replace "lawyers" with "pilots" in your first sentence and I couldn't have said it any better. It's amazing how many professions look the same from the inside looking out rather than from the other way around.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
Perhaps I am wrong in this observation, but you may be suffering from a case of, "The grass is always greener on the other side" syndrome.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I'm in a very enviable position with good seniority at a very $trong company. I think this is about as green as the grass gets and I feel very lucky to be here!

Good luck!

 

[Mark]

It's good to hear A300Capt give a realistic view to some of the career changers out there. I thought I would change careers young a few years ago (I'm 28 now) but now that I have my CFI ticket and can't find enough students to make a living doing it I really wish I wouldn't have thrown my software engineering career out the window. Granted I can always go back but it's not the same as if I'd stayed in.. and there's also the say $30,000 that I blew on ratings which I'd kill to have in the bank right now.

Maybe in a year or so when the industry comes back and I can actually find full time work as a CFI I'll be happy with my decision but right now I'm definately discouraged.

With that said a persistant career changer that is willing to relocate anywhere and doesn't have a family to support should be able to make it. I've found CFI jobs available out of state but I don't want to leave Southern California right now. Who would have thought that California would be so saturated with furloughed pilots and CFI's after Sept. 11th. Not me.

Anyway hope I haven't discouraged you guys too much but I wanted to give you a more realistic view of how this industry can be starting out. Don't get too complacent and keep your heads up and you should be alright in your career change.

- Mark

 

[ready2fly]

With all due respect to A300Cpt and his acomplishments, I believe that I am that "mid-life Career changer" to which he refers in his post. I'm the guy that offers advice saying "go for it" only to get quashed and discouraged by those in the know.

To be honest - I do understand why and that is why the rebuffs haven't detoured me from seeking my goal .

I'm fortunate in that I do not have that glamorous image that some paint on the airlines. I've been told and have read over and over that it is a hard road to hoe enough to believe that - yes- indeed it's not going to be a "joy ride". Tthere are going to be some pretty lean times. There is going to be quite a bit of relocation. To be fank - my whole life has been pretty lean financially, so anything on the plus side of poverty is pretty much gravy.

I simply want to do this (flying) and I would think that those who have worked their butts off and achieved those goals - like A300Cpt - would understand the exuberance exhibited by those of us who haven't "made it".

A300Cpt is, of course, able to give the realisitc view of what it's really like because he's there. He's achieved his goal (or one of them).

And, while I realize that he's not trying to discourage as much as be the voice of reason - I'm not sure he remembers what it was like to be in our shoes once. Or maybe he does and wouldn't wish it on anybody.

My point: Understand that I do not intend this post as an attack on A300Cpt. Not in the least!! I respect your opinion very much! But - I've dreampt about this on some level my entire life and it's something I know that I PERSONALLY want very, very badly!

Is it going to be everything I think it's "cracked up to be"??? I won't know until I get there.

Very few get to the pinnacle of any career without a great deal of struggle and sacrifice.

 

[A300Capt]

ready2fly,

Actually, I wasn't referring to anyone in particular in my post. I had many people give me the same advice when I began my quest to a flying career. I had many people give me the same pessimistic outlook also. One was a DPE who did some of my initial rating rides. He told me to look at other career fields as aviation was a dead end. He had gone through a couple divorces and a business bankruptcy and was pretty much burned out on aviation. That shook my confidence for about a day and a half...then I was back on course. After all, I was young, he wasn't me and that would/could never happen to me was my rationale. Fortuanately, it didn't or hasn't yet.

Did I listen to any of them? Of course not! I had much bigger plans for myself and stayed focused on my ultimate goal(s). Fortunately, I was young and had very little to lose with everything to gain. In some ways it's easier now to make it to an airline seat and in some ways harder.

I hope that anyone who dreams the same dreams I had years ago achieves their goal(s). One of the reasons I enjoy this website so much is reading the posts from folks just starting out. It takes me back in time and brings back a lot of memories and feelings I had..some good, some bad, yet always interesting.

I never had a media outlet such as the internet and websites chocked full of info from people "in the biz". In some ways that made it easier because I wasn't bombarded with negative information on a daily basis. Nobody in my family flies , other than me, so I didn't hear any airline/flying horror stories. For me, ignorance was certainly bliss! I never gave up because I just assumed that if I had all my ratings, worked hard building hours and kept my nose clean that I would eventually make it.

Aviation has been very good to me and I know it. I look back at my career so far and now see a lot of the pitfalls I somehow managed to avoid along the way and attribute that to shear luck more than anything. My hope is to inform others to those pitfalls, and there are many, so they, unlike myself, can approach many decisions with their eyes wide open.

If you are truly bitten by the aviation bug, you, like me, will not let any negative talk deter you from your goals. However, hopefully you'll be better informed than I was.

Good luck!

PS. I didn't consider your post an attack on me in any way.

 

[derg]

Once again, ditto everything A300Capt says. Dang, Bill, "You're the Man!"

I tend to be a little more pessimistic at times, because I really want to make sure that people truly understand what it takes for success in this field. So many people with financial interests want you to percieve that it's very simple, cut a check, attend some classes and you've entered a glamorous and prestigous profession.

There is a lot of blood, sweat and tears that 100% of us went through to get to where we are and it's going to be a challenge.

Impossible? Absolutely not. Easy? Absolutely not. It's easier than a lot of the pessimists say, but WAAAAAAY harder than the flight schools advertise (sorry XYZ Academy, I pay the bills so I'm going to be honest).

If I was in front of a group and said, "How many of you are willing to leave home at the drop of a hat, load your car full of your necessities and travel to Texarkana, AR to fly a Piper Chieftain at night, in all types of weather for very little money. I could guarantee that the people that didn't give me the finger and leave are the ones that are going to have success in aviation.

I went to one of the world's most reknown flight schools and the people that I trained with who thought they were "above" flying rubber dog dookie and moving around to parts unknown to build experience never made it in aviation.

So I've got to ask, how bad do you want it? Keep in mind that there are a lot of things that you really want in life, but you have to want it more than the amount of struggle you're going to have to deal with.

Personally, I think now is a semi-ok time to hop into aviation, but let me qualify that statement. A lot of folks are getting completely scared out of the field and I really don't blame them.

If you can train affordably, work a good paying job in between flying cargo, regional, or as a CFI, keep your head up and dreams alive, you're going to be ok. But only if you truly WANT it. But I surely wouldn't want to carry $30,000 to $80,000 in debt because that's going to change the whole dynamic of the situation.

I think if I had a son that was in his early 20's, I'd be pushing the Air National Guard big time. You get the undeniably best training on earth, get to fly F-15's, C-130's, C-17's, KC-135's, F-16 s, A-10s, etc and then you can still pursue regional and major airline flying. One of my furloughed friends down in Tuscon is flying CAP in an F-16.

If you're within the age range, the training is free, you get to meet loads of good people and fly ultra-cool aircraft.

Wow, that went predictibly off topic! /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

 

[proflyer35]

I agree with A300 Capt. Finish Law school and have a back up career. There is very few $$$$ seats in the airlines and the competition is very tough. Competitive hrs are in the 3800 to 4100 hr bracket with alot of PIC ( this is actually signing out the aircraft ) Not simply playing behind the wheel. Then there is jet time....etc. I began flying at 16 and was a business owner at 25 with an Engineering degree. I had massed more than 2000 hrs of private time before even realistically deciding to make a career change to flying so that I would be competitive and be able to provide for my family. Keep in mind that there are heavy Iron drivers who are now being layed off and furloughed a head of you. Most of the flying positions at companies and fractional jet owners goes to retired airline Capts*( because they operate part 91) and the fractionals are full of high time jet applicants. This is a very hard time to be a pilot for pay that will pay the bills and the loans you took to get the ratings and to build the hours. Reality is... the big money days in flying our over. Build a healthy bank account first. Learn to fly with dissposable income. Use your future contacts as an attorney to get a flying job( today it is who you know NOt what you know) Play it wisely...at 21 things are fun, but as you age and become like the older male population with a wife and kids and mortage and private school fees and insurance payments and investments for retirement and don't forget taxes and such and normal bills that keep pilling up... the flying gig won't cover it. I work two jobs the second as a flight instructor to deal with bills. Such is life.

 

[travis_az]

A300Capt sums it up perfectly. I jumped ship from a perfectly good career, because I felt I needed to get back to my degree/education (flying). I have come to realize, a majority of people in most careers are looking for the next best thing, i know I was.

Mark- I am in your shoes. I have one student, and working part-time in a bike store (pays better then CFI). Actively looking for a sustainable career, and keep flying fun.

Times are tough, and dont let the schools/advertisements fool you. They are hungry too...

 

[Soonermurph]

Re: OK OK.

I practiced law for nine years. I had my own firm with a partner and staff. I hit a big case last year so the money was good. BUT. I could not sleep at night worrying about cases, griping clients, lying lawyers (believe it or not) and office management. I just came to the place in my life where I was not going to answer one more set of interrogatories. Litigation is a grind. I know of too many lawyers that have a wiskey bottle in their desk or a heart attack at age 45. I'm 35. I am ready to do something that I love. I want to be able to wake up in the morning and look forward to work. And I want to be able to enjoy time off with my family without worrying what was going on back at the office.
I just finished my first week at ATP. I LOVE IT! Yes it's fast, yes its challenging, but there is no where I would rather be. I am glad that I had the courage and family support to go a different direction. God will bless the man who follows a dream. Wishing, hoping, regreting, and complaining is for cowards. At the very least, I will not look back on my life with wishing I had followed a dream that I didn't have the courage to go after.

 

[ready2fly]

Re: OK OK.

Amen Soonermurph! That's the other side of the coin that I was trying to flip to. Thanks.

A300Capt. - THANK YOU for your response! Truly. Perhaps my upcoming checkride (passed it by the way) had my thoughts in overload. I appreciate you clarifying.

 

[Virusss]

Your not crazy. Your just commited to the things you love (like flying). I quit a Business profession to persue a career in the Aviation field. I wanna be a Pro. Pilot For Delta

 

[Bunny]

I'm no expert, but I think that everyone who has said that it's a good idea to have a backup plan is right on. I've heard of airline pilots who are also doctors, lawyers, etc. because they flew on the side and then eventually accumulated enough time to move their aviation career along. I personally have a career as an accoutant now, am a court reporting student, and a student pilot. Hopefully one day somebody will pay me to fly. Until then, well, I guess I'll just try to make as much money as I can so I can pay to fly.

(Oh, and by the way, I'm a lawschool dropout too...heard a lot of that bad stuff about being a lawyer and realized it wasn't for me.)