Direct-enter-enter
New Member
Call the 800 ALL ATPS and tell them you hold your IA and see if the price is reduced, if it is go ahead and get it with the guy you like, but I must say that the IA is really a strong point at ATP.
I am considering attending ATP. Please advise
- Thread starter mattadeen
- Start date
Call the 800 ALL ATPS and tell them you hold your IA and see if the price is reduced, if it is go ahead and get it with the guy you like, but I must say that the IA is really a strong point at ATP.
The price would not be reduced. It is the same regardless of whether or not you begin the career pilot program with or without the instrument rating.
amorris311
Well-Known Member
if you are talking about th then you are right. he has busted guys as well as passed guys. he is fair and gives a thorough checkride.
Asta
New Member
I just bit the bullet and signed up for the ACPP at KRIC. I think you're right -- doing my instrument ticket in a twin will be a great experience.
directenterenter
New Member
30k less????in a twin??? doubtfull
That is my point. Maybe if you want just the basic ratings it is 30K less. But 150 hours or more of twin time? No way. The cheapest twin for rent where I live is 195 wet and I cant fly it unless I have spent 10 hours with their instructor.
As for the RJ course, what about all of the agreements on the ATP website with the Regional airlines offering reduced min's for people with the course?
As for the RJ course, what about all of the agreements on the ATP website with the Regional airlines offering reduced min's for people with the course?
directenterenter
New Member
They do get you an interview, but with the current trends, I would get as many resumes out, make as many phone calls as possible...if no takers, then I might start looking at a bridge course, or an airline may come back to you and tell you they will interview you if you complete one of those course's. I'd wait though.
ATP will prepare you to be treated like a number. And that may one of the most valuable things you come away with, you're not going to be suprised by the speed or fire-hose method of teaching when you get to an airline. That is something you are never going to get from an FBO. ATP was a cluster#####, but I am very glad I went through the program. I am not afraid to say no to a dispatcher now, had great great expirence flying crosscountry, you are exposed to real flying issues. That is a benefit of ATP, youre not going to be shootin the same ole' ILS into the same runway, off the same VOR's, the same missed every other day that you invariably find at a FBO, you get to fly all over the country into big airports, in ###### weather with just you and your flight partner, great expirence, something, I just don't think you can get from a FBO. FBO is not a bad route at all, either is ATP though. Just know that you will have to be very self-motivated, keep pluggin away on little sleep, and don't expect anything to be spoon fed, they treat you like you should be able to make your own decisions, you are a PILOT, they wany to get it out of your head that your a student that needs to be led by the hand, and some people appreciate that, some don't. good luck whichever way you decide to go.
BillH
New Member
:yeahthat:
fletchersteel
Well-Known Member
I ran a few figures just to see what the outcome was. ATP's brochure states that you will receive 190 ME (75cc, 65mei/ck rides, and 50FTD). At my local FBO where I am training for my PPL, a seminole is $219hr and $40hr for instructor multiplied by 140 hours is $36,600. I can't help but think that books, manuals, exams, etc.. will equal $18,000? If you take out the RJ cert. class, it comes to a difference of approx. $13,000. Correct my if am I wrong, but what am I miscalculating? Will the misc. that ATP covers sum up to $13,000? Or is that the price you pay for the military style training? I personally like the idea of earning your ratings in approx. 90 days. At my FBO, the same training could take years. I don't think that I can afford to be out of work for that long! Non related question...Does PHX have a CRJ-200 FTD?
Clocks
Well-Known Member
Well you mentioned the time factor. While a lot of people love to post "any FBO can do all that training in 90 days", I'm curious if FBOs with CFI's willing to meet 4-8 hours a day for 90 days straight are really all that common around the country.
In addition some other things to think about...how many twins does your local FBO have? For example two might sound good, until one is out time building continuously, and the other is booked for a few days, or on a 100 hour.
Also ATP's price includes ground instruction, although there isn't a massive amount of it...probably wouldn't change your numbers much.
You will need to include that 50 hours of FTD time in your price calculations however (or add 50 hours of flight time) because it is used to met hour requirements.
Housing is included also..though thats irrelevant to your calculations since I assume at your local FBO you'd be living at home.
That's all I can think of right now.
knma'91
Well-Known Member
i ran some calculations a few weeks ago during my decision-making process, and to be honest, when considering ALL THINGS... ATP came out cheaper.
i think i did something as follows:
ATP's Career Pilot Program cost: $54,995
Local cost (i'll use fletcher's rate, cuz i forget what i used) getting the same number of hours:
10 SE x $145/hr = $01,450
190 ME x $259/hr = $49,210
200 TT would cost $50,660
then when considering my personal situation, (adding the private course to it)... tack on another $8,995 (for 85 hours) to the ACPP and it comes to $63,990. at my local FBO, SE time is $145/hr, so that would be $12,325 locally. add that to $50,660, and we get $62,985. so far, local FBO is $1000 cheaper. now let's factor in some other things. locally, it would DEFINITELY take longer. so now i gotta think about where i live for that amount of time, and the commute, so for me, factor in rent and gas, and forget about it.
i know, some people live closer to their FBO than i do, but it costs me about $15 every time i drive to my flight school. to throw some more numbers in, let's say it takes me a year to get all my ratings (it would never happen at my local school, but let's imagine it anyway...) so let's do $1000 a month for rent (that's cheap in NY/NJ.) boom - $12,000 added onto $62,985, that's now $74,985 - let's say $75,000? then i'll factor the difference in driving distance. it's 40 miles each way for me now, and 11 miles each way in richmond, where i'm headed in january. let's cut the difference down to only 20 miles, cuz like i said, most people arent as far as i am. my truck gets about 17 mpg, but let's say it gets 20, cuz sometimes i drive my MR2. that's 40 miles per trip. 3 bucks a gallon, 2 gallons used, that's 6 dollars added expense to each trip. now let's say i only go every other day cuz my FBO doesn't have that many full time instructors. 180 days of this is another $1080. total comes to $76,000 or so??? and i was drastically working that in favor of the FBO. i would not be surprised if i spent over $100,000 trying to live at home and do all this at a local FBO. nope. not to mention, living at home, for me, means distraction and girlfriend and family and cats and internet and video games. i'd rather be forced to focus and be 'fully emersed'.
PLUS, considering that it WILL take longer... that gets you into a career later. i'm sure i could think of some other reasons why i chose ATP, and i could also keep typing, but i'm tired and hopefully made my point. if nothing else, just for my own sake.
there's my 2¢
i think i did something as follows:
ATP's Career Pilot Program cost: $54,995
Local cost (i'll use fletcher's rate, cuz i forget what i used) getting the same number of hours:
10 SE x $145/hr = $01,450
190 ME x $259/hr = $49,210
200 TT would cost $50,660
then when considering my personal situation, (adding the private course to it)... tack on another $8,995 (for 85 hours) to the ACPP and it comes to $63,990. at my local FBO, SE time is $145/hr, so that would be $12,325 locally. add that to $50,660, and we get $62,985. so far, local FBO is $1000 cheaper. now let's factor in some other things. locally, it would DEFINITELY take longer. so now i gotta think about where i live for that amount of time, and the commute, so for me, factor in rent and gas, and forget about it.
i know, some people live closer to their FBO than i do, but it costs me about $15 every time i drive to my flight school. to throw some more numbers in, let's say it takes me a year to get all my ratings (it would never happen at my local school, but let's imagine it anyway...) so let's do $1000 a month for rent (that's cheap in NY/NJ.) boom - $12,000 added onto $62,985, that's now $74,985 - let's say $75,000? then i'll factor the difference in driving distance. it's 40 miles each way for me now, and 11 miles each way in richmond, where i'm headed in january. let's cut the difference down to only 20 miles, cuz like i said, most people arent as far as i am. my truck gets about 17 mpg, but let's say it gets 20, cuz sometimes i drive my MR2. that's 40 miles per trip. 3 bucks a gallon, 2 gallons used, that's 6 dollars added expense to each trip. now let's say i only go every other day cuz my FBO doesn't have that many full time instructors. 180 days of this is another $1080. total comes to $76,000 or so??? and i was drastically working that in favor of the FBO. i would not be surprised if i spent over $100,000 trying to live at home and do all this at a local FBO. nope. not to mention, living at home, for me, means distraction and girlfriend and family and cats and internet and video games. i'd rather be forced to focus and be 'fully emersed'.
PLUS, considering that it WILL take longer... that gets you into a career later. i'm sure i could think of some other reasons why i chose ATP, and i could also keep typing, but i'm tired and hopefully made my point. if nothing else, just for my own sake.
there's my 2¢
fletchersteel
Well-Known Member
I did forget to add the 50 FTD. My FBO has a twin that runs $60 and hour That is another $3000. Now my difference is apprx. $10,000. AS insidious was saying, travel is also a pricey factor for me. I drive approx 140 miles roundtrip each time I go to my FBO. And the way fuel keeps going up, I don't think that I could afford all my training at my FBO. Housing is also another consideration for most people. I will have to pay rent regardless if I go to ATP or not, wife and kids you know. I honestly believe that for the money, nobody can beat ATP. All the other big schools are minimal 12 months for training and then another 12 months instructing. I found one school that is 3 years total time. Those are all to long to survive without income. 90 days might even be tough.
N826AW
Well-Known Member
PHX will have a CRJ sim at the end of December/beginning of January.
Gumps
New Member
I like to read as much as I can before making a decision, but with the ATP vs. FBO debate one thing keeps popping into my head:
Each airline pilot is guaranteed their first years pay, but how many years will they have at the most senior pay grade? Right now even the worst regional has a six figure grade for their top spots. If you go to the mom and pop shops, you're rolling the dice with that last couple year's salary. Go to ATP and you could start your flying career a year or two before the guy who is "saving 30,000." and retire with an extra 1/4 million + in the bank. But what the heck do I know?
"I never flew with (him) so I can't say I ever really knew him."-J.S.
Each airline pilot is guaranteed their first years pay, but how many years will they have at the most senior pay grade? Right now even the worst regional has a six figure grade for their top spots. If you go to the mom and pop shops, you're rolling the dice with that last couple year's salary. Go to ATP and you could start your flying career a year or two before the guy who is "saving 30,000." and retire with an extra 1/4 million + in the bank. But what the heck do I know?
"I never flew with (him) so I can't say I ever really knew him."-J.S.
Clocks
Well-Known Member
That's not quite right. It's 140 hours in the seminole and 50 hours in the FTD (which is also set up like the 2000 model seminoles).
10 SE x $145/hr = $01,450
140 ME x $259/hr = $36,260
50 FTD x ____/hr = _______
Total = ________
Fill in the blanks with your local FBO's FTD prices.
What you are losing at ATP vs taking a year at a local FBO is 9 more months of time to study, hang around the airport and chat, read forums during training, etc. While not required for any certificate or rating, all of those things will likely contribute to you being a better pilot overall. So do yourself a favor and realize you don't get all that extra time and BE PREPARED to study before and during training. And don't think the day of your last checkride is the last time you'll ever study (I spent 5 years getting all my ratings at a university and had to study before the first time I taught each lesson as a CFI to avoid sounding like an idiot).
BillH
New Member
Amen to that! ATP did something for me that is causing my little world to turn into Bizzaro World. Back in January I was sitting in ground school with a bunch of other private pilots. I went to ATP after getting my private license. I am coming back, was just hired on today at my old flight school as a CFI/CFII/MEI. My fellow classmates are now my students!!!! To be quite honest, this is freaking me out a bit. Heck, one of the best teachers I've ever had in my life is going to be MY student, he wants to get his instrument rating. I don't know if I should laugh out loud hysterically or what, this is freaking weird man!
aerospacepilot
New Member
I should have posted this budget along with my original response...
ATP promises you:
75 hours multi-engine cross country time.
65 hours multi-engine instruction
50 hours multi-engine FTD
10 hours single engine instruction
So lets assume some typical FBO rates. These are all rates that I can get at a typical flight school in the SF Bay Area (has to be one of the top 3 most expensive areas for flight training in the US).
Piper Seminole = $200/hr
Cessna 172 = $100/hr
Multi engine FTD = $40/hr
Instructor = $40/hr
Lets not forget that the 75 hours of multi engine cross country is under the hood with a safety pilot. So take the twin rate, divide it by two, and multiply by a factor like 1.1 for taxi/takeoff/landing not under the hood. So use $110/hr for multi engine cross country with safety pilot.
As for ground instruction, I figured since you have 125 hours of flight instruction, I would assume 50 hours of ground instruction. I have no idea if this if too high, but lets use it for budget purposes. A good pilot will get as much instruction of the ground as possible.
Piper Seminole Instruction = $200/hr * 65hrs =$13,000
Cessna 172 Instruction = $100/hr * 10hrs = $1,000
Multi engine FTD Instruction = $40/hr * 50hrs = $2,000
Total flight instruction = $40/hr * 125hrs = $5,000
Piper Seminole XC with safety pilot = $110/hr * 75hrs = $8,250
Ground instruction = $40/hr * 50hrs = $2,000
Total flight costs at FBO: $31,250
ATP also includes:
5 written exams
IFR Jepp Charts
90 days of housing
Manuals and checklists
Written exams = $100 * 5 exams = $500
IFR Jepp charts = $160/yr * (1/4 year) = $40
90 days of housing = $300/month * 3 months = $900
Remember if you train at a local FBO, you may not need to pay for housing since you could live at your home.
Manuals & Checklists = $160 (super high balled that number).
Total cost of ATP included extras: $1,600
Examiners' fees of approximately $3,500 are not included in the Airline Career Pilot Program price. - From ATP website.
So I conclude, that using higher than normal costs for a typical FBO, you could accomplish ATP's program for just $32,850. If you were smart, and shopped around for a reasonable rate, it could be much less.
Total amount you saved by not going to ATP: $22,145.00
This does not include any savings from not needing housing. This does not include any savings from obtaining your PPL cheaper than an ATP.
Finally, to insidious and clocks, I entered your rates of $259/hr for a twin, and $145/hr for a Cessna-172 (that is more than twice what I pay BTW), and you would still save $15,426 by NOT going to ATP. If you don't copy ATP's syllabus and only get 100hrs of multi (the most required by any regional), you save even more money.
For anyone considering going to ATP, if you want me to tell you how much you can save by going to a local FBO, PM me four hourly rates (single engine airplane, multi engine airplane, instructor rate, and FTD rate), and I will tell you how much you can save doing the ATP syllabus training at your local FBO.
ATP promises you:
75 hours multi-engine cross country time.
65 hours multi-engine instruction
50 hours multi-engine FTD
10 hours single engine instruction
So lets assume some typical FBO rates. These are all rates that I can get at a typical flight school in the SF Bay Area (has to be one of the top 3 most expensive areas for flight training in the US).
Piper Seminole = $200/hr
Cessna 172 = $100/hr
Multi engine FTD = $40/hr
Instructor = $40/hr
Lets not forget that the 75 hours of multi engine cross country is under the hood with a safety pilot. So take the twin rate, divide it by two, and multiply by a factor like 1.1 for taxi/takeoff/landing not under the hood. So use $110/hr for multi engine cross country with safety pilot.
As for ground instruction, I figured since you have 125 hours of flight instruction, I would assume 50 hours of ground instruction. I have no idea if this if too high, but lets use it for budget purposes. A good pilot will get as much instruction of the ground as possible.
Piper Seminole Instruction = $200/hr * 65hrs =$13,000
Cessna 172 Instruction = $100/hr * 10hrs = $1,000
Multi engine FTD Instruction = $40/hr * 50hrs = $2,000
Total flight instruction = $40/hr * 125hrs = $5,000
Piper Seminole XC with safety pilot = $110/hr * 75hrs = $8,250
Ground instruction = $40/hr * 50hrs = $2,000
Total flight costs at FBO: $31,250
ATP also includes:
5 written exams
IFR Jepp Charts
90 days of housing
Manuals and checklists
Written exams = $100 * 5 exams = $500
IFR Jepp charts = $160/yr * (1/4 year) = $40
90 days of housing = $300/month * 3 months = $900
Remember if you train at a local FBO, you may not need to pay for housing since you could live at your home.
Manuals & Checklists = $160 (super high balled that number).
Total cost of ATP included extras: $1,600
Examiners' fees of approximately $3,500 are not included in the Airline Career Pilot Program price. - From ATP website.
So I conclude, that using higher than normal costs for a typical FBO, you could accomplish ATP's program for just $32,850. If you were smart, and shopped around for a reasonable rate, it could be much less.
Total amount you saved by not going to ATP: $22,145.00
This does not include any savings from not needing housing. This does not include any savings from obtaining your PPL cheaper than an ATP.
Finally, to insidious and clocks, I entered your rates of $259/hr for a twin, and $145/hr for a Cessna-172 (that is more than twice what I pay BTW), and you would still save $15,426 by NOT going to ATP. If you don't copy ATP's syllabus and only get 100hrs of multi (the most required by any regional), you save even more money.
For anyone considering going to ATP, if you want me to tell you how much you can save by going to a local FBO, PM me four hourly rates (single engine airplane, multi engine airplane, instructor rate, and FTD rate), and I will tell you how much you can save doing the ATP syllabus training at your local FBO.