I am considering attending ATP. Please advise

I'm going to throw this out there and get flamed for it...but without advocating the RJ program it is included in the price.

/flameon! :p

(I think you should be able to opt out of it if you decide you'd rather CFI for a few extra months rather than get the lower-mins interviews, but you can't).
 
well my flight school is $100/hr plus $45/hr for the instructor. so then jersey must be among the top 2 places for flight training costs... and i doubt that.

so i'll go back to explaining my personal situation. i had a part time job and was renting in jersey with my aunt/uncle/cousin for $350/month. well i was laid off (uncle's business slowing down) and subsequently had to move out. my options were: look for a full time job and rent my own apartment for at least $1000/month... or go back to college (not gonna happen)... or live with my dad and work somewhere by him (ny state). well i couldn't imagine a dayjob that appealed to me, college was out of the question, so i looked into flight schools, cuz the only thing i can imagine doing all the time is flying. i found a school, moved out a month later, and moved in with my dad temporarily.

so, if i stay local, i WOULD be paying rent. something i wasn't really enduring previously. and you can't tell me i'd get it done in 5 months at an FBO, or even a year. not one around me anyways. but let's pretend i could do it in a year. you tell me how i'm going to finish 285 hours of flight training (not to mention ground instruction, and studying, and sim time) in 1 year while trying to pay for rent/mortgage, the training itself, and somehow working my job around all that time that's being dedicated to the flight training...

i dunno about you, but if i spent 10 hours a day at work (figuring commute, that's a short day) i'd only have evenings to fly, and weekends. that's the case with a lot of people, so am i really going to get a lot of time in on the weekends? instructors have other students to teach as well. then weather screws me out of about 50% of lessons, especially during initial training when conditions need to be better. jersey weather sucks and i'm pretty unlucky.

also, it was even more worth it to me because of the private course. $8,995 for 85 hours, housing and written exam included. for $8995, i'd get about 62 hours at my local flight school, NOT including any ground instruction, housing, or the written exam. the costs do not compare, ATP wins EASILY.

i don't feel like arguing this anymore. i've weighed everything regarding my situation, and ATP is cheaper, faster, and smarter. maybe not for some, but it is for me.
 
insidious said:
I've weighed everything regarding my situation, and ATP is cheaper, faster, and smarter. maybe not for some, but it is for me.
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There it is folks... That's the key right there. No matter what flight school you decide to attend... make sure it works for you and your individual situation.

Kudo's to insidious for actually putting some real research into his decision... you'd be surprised (maybe not the JC crowd) at how many people I've seen jump blindly into flight training without researching it or knowing what to fully expect... and that includes some folks I had seen go to ATP.

Research the heck out of it... and do what's best for you.

Bob
 
"Go to ATP and you could start your flying career a year or two before the guy who is "saving 30,000." and retire with an extra 1/4 million + in the bank. But what the heck do I know?"

There are soooo many scenarios that could shoot this logic down. For it to work, it means getting on at just the right airline and never taking any backwards steps throughout your career. I've had a career most would salivate over, yet there were backwards steps. Picking a flight school to get'er done at any cost just to get hired the fastest is really opening yourself up to a crapshoot.
 
"well my flight school is $100/hr plus $45/hr for the instructor."

I only charge $160 for dual in my twin. You must be at a higher cost FBO.
 
I am saving money by doing my IR in a seminole--sort of killing 2 birds with one stone--

I am lucky and this is not typical but here is what I am doing--I am not a 0 hours guy-had my PPL a while and had some hours.

Got a Multi rating in a week-working on IR-

Morning flight--IR training, Seminole 1-2 hours in the morning-in the afternoon I do some time building XC in a 172 by myself doing some fun ole VFR flying for 2-3 hours a day. Have lunch with the wife. Home in the evening to play with the kids-FBO has no prob with 5-6 days a week--aircraft are available-instructor is one of those "old salts" frieght dawgs with 4 or 5K hours. In about a month or so I get the check ride for the IR, turn around and do my commercial. All the ground and testing is done by self study--My instructor answers questions if I need help-

45 days=~20K for the whole kit and caboodle. End up with a couple hundred or so hours, half of which are multi. Having fun, relaxing, enjoying the flying. Staying at my job until at least July when I do the CFI thing.

I looked at ATP but just couldn't pull the trigger--Too much money, too much frantic pace, too many "if's" in that equation and I did visit a place. I think what made my mind up was my instructor. He has been around the block and I had a long talk with him and I respect the hell out of him. He's the guy I want to learn from.

The airline's (or freight ops or school or whatever I end up doing in aviation)will be there when I am ready. I am not in a great big hurry--
 
I know how you feel about the weather. I had roughly 12 hours of flight training scheduled last week and I think that I ended up with about 4.5. The Colorado winter has arrived. When I started my PPL back in September, I figured that I would be done by chirstmas, easy; but it is looking more like the end of January or early Febuary. I am attending a local FBO, in which the environment has been a great learning experience. I feel that ATP will probably be more expensive, but I have learned something about union work. "Senority is Everything". I am currently starting my second week laid off, because I only have 21 months senority with my job. The guy right above me is holding his job. The added cost of ATP I think is because of the quick, and total immerse into airline flying. I can't but help feeling overwhelmed at trying to learn the beginning to everything there is to know about flying, while at home and working 40 plus hours, family, etc...But there is the flip side, ATP is not for everyone; I just hope it is for me.
 
"but I have learned something about union work. "Senority is Everything"

See my above post. If you get hired at airline A, and get furloughed, or don't make Capt as fast as airline B, you are more behind than ahead. Seniority is wonderful, but it's not a good basis for choosing a flight school strategy.

This "seniority is everything" is plastered all over the big academy websites. I just don't think it's all it's cracked up to be, in the overall scheme of things....
 
Captain_Bob said:
There it is folks... That's the key right there. No matter what flight school you decide to attend... make sure it works for you and your individual situation.

Kudo's to insidious for actually putting some real research into his decision... you'd be surprised (maybe not the JC crowd) at how many people I've seen jump blindly into flight training without researching it or knowing what to fully expect... and that includes some folks I had seen go to ATP.

Research the heck out of it... and do what's best for you.

Bob
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agree completely, I went through ATP's program, and saw a few people just quit, they thought that the program was going to be "fun", and it can be, but treat it as a job, consider every day that you show up a job interview, people get into trouble it seems when the have the " I paid 50K for this, I work on my schedule", it doesn't work like that at ATP and it won't anytime from here no out if you want to make flying a career. Some do very very well @ ATP, it really depends on what you make it, I always asked the people that were prematurely packing...its only 90 days, if you won't go ball's to the wall for 90 days, for a great start to a flying career, when will you?

Good luck, I don't think you'll be disappointed
 
UPS Yoda, wouldn't the same potholes present themselves equally to the non-ATP student? A thirty year career should earn a pilot more $ than a twenty eight year career, right? Wouldn't a lower seniority number give a pilot a better chance to avoid those dreaded layoffs? If money were no object which would you choose? What is the big "advantage" with an FBO? Is two years of hangar talk more valuable than two years of seniority? When your 160$ per hour twin breaks what will we fly? Are you available to give instruction 24 hrs a day 365 days per year? What type of sim. do you instruct with? Do you have a place for me to sleep at your house? When I earn all of my ratings with you, will you have clients for me so I can get paid to fly 100 hours per month in a twin? I'm not trying to attack you, honestly-it sounds like a great opportunity for someone. But not for everyone.

How 'bout this? If Aerospace is right and $31,250. is the cost to learn at the FBO, than all students are commited to at least that amount. Would the "extra" $15,426 or $22,145 (a car payment) be the end of the world to get the student B.S. out of the way and start your life? I've seen nothing but slow going, be it broken airplanes, lack of organization, poor instruction, distractions at home, from the FBO and club route.

Are students who attend big name universities for their degrees "stupid" because of all of the money they spent? They could have gone to Sally Struthers School of whatever, I saw it on T.V. for $100- you get a certificate and everything!!!:D

My favorite quote:
"Basically, seniority is everything in the airline business."
I found it here:
http://www.jetcareers.com/content/view/65/132/ :confused:
 
"UPS Yoda, wouldn't the same potholes present themselves equally to the non-ATP student?"

Yeah, of course. I'm not the one trying to sell you flight training package based on something that can easily be nothing, either.

"A thirty year career should earn a pilot more $ than a twenty eight year career, right?"

Not necessarily, not if you start over a few times. There is too much that is not in your control.

As far as me and instructing. I'm not in the game for anything more than timebuilding, at the moment. I was simply pointing out that if a guy is paying $145/hr for dual in a 172, he's at an expensive FBO. I'd say, being in such a situation lends itself towards seeing ATP as a better choice. There are flight schools in various area's that cost a lot less than ATP. Aerospace pilot is pointing that out. (See aerospace, I told you this wouldn't go over well here...hehe)

"Is two years of hangar talk more valuable than two years of seniority?"

I dispute that it takes two years. Depends on where you are and what you are willing to put into it. There is no reason your couldn't fly just as much as some FBO's as you could at ATP. The 90 day program is 190 hours in 90 days. That's about two hours a day, on average. No big deal. And you see training at an FBO as nothing more than "hangar talk"? How is that different from ATP? Are ATP CFI's better than FBO CFI's? It depends, but I think you could seek out a CFI at an FBO that has FAR more experience than an ATP CFI who was a PPL 90 days ago.

"I've seen nothing but slow going, be it broken airplanes, lack of organization, poor instruction, distractions at home, from the FBO and club route."

Well, there ya go. I can see why you are looking for something different. Have fun at ATP. Hope it works out for ya.
 
DE727UPS said:
"I've seen nothing but slow going, be it broken airplanes, lack of organization, poor instruction, distractions at home, from the FBO and club route."

Well, there ya go. I can see why you are looking for something different. Have fun at ATP. Hope it works out for ya.
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If smaller FBOs would put together a program where they would guarantee meeting with a CFI 4 hours a day (ground school, flying, FTD), they would probably make a killing. But the whole "slow going, be it broken airplanes, lack of organization" argument is a common theme among FBOs, or at least among people who have had a bad experience with one or two.

The problem with the "any FBO can do it in 90 days" argument is that many aren't really set up for it, and it's a crap shoot on whether the owner's word is going to last through 3+ months of bad weather, CFIs quitting, broken airplanes, and scheduling problems.

Is that worth $20,000? It depends...
 
DE727UPS said:
"well my flight school is $100/hr plus $45/hr for the instructor."

I only charge $160 for dual in my twin. You must be at a higher cost FBO.
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wow where are you buying your gas? or did you hege way back with southwest?

Down here you are doing well if you can find a twin for less than 250/hour.
 
Autofuel in WA, $3.30/gal, I charge $150/hr.
100LL in CA, 4.15/gal at KTRM, I charge $160/hr.

It's got a 430 and an autopilot.
 
Can I make a post about how DE727 is undercutting career CFIs and flight schools, thereby ruining the industry? :D
 
Knock yourself out...

By the way, I'm more of a career CFI than your average ATP guy. Don't you think? Since 1980...
 
DE727UPS said:
"well my flight school is $100/hr plus $45/hr for the instructor."

I only charge $160 for dual in my twin. You must be at a higher cost FBO.
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Your bio says you have an "old taildragger". What is it, and do you give instruction in that? If so, how much?
 
HAHA....nooooo

I bought it with that in mind but it didn't work out. It's a Luscombe with no brakes on the right side. Too squirrilly for me to want to instruct out of. Maybe I'll get a Cessna 140 next summer, instead. That would be cool.
 
yuo have a luscome? that is awesome. i was thinking whent he time is right that would be an awesome plane. please keep me in mind if you ever think about selling it.
 
The Luscombe is a neat little plane. I've ridden in one once. It's real short coupled. If the nose moves an inch, the tail has moved a foot! I just got my tailwheel endorsement in a Citabria a couple months ago. I'm going to attempt to get checked out in the Swift sometime near the end of the month.
 
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