Hello all, I have currently narrowed down my flight school search to three institutions. They are: ATP, DCA and Jet U. If I attend ATP, I plan on completing the 60 day private program at Jacksonville, FL and the 90 day career pilot program at Stuart, FL. I currently work in excess of 60 hours a week and I doubt if I will be able to get all of my written exams out of the way before starting school. Has anyone ever done it from scratch without completing any written exams this way? If so, please share your experience. I would also like to know how you feel about ATP in general. I would like to hear about how students felt about the 90 day program at Stuart. I have been hearing a lot of neagative feedback about DCA. There is a great deal of expense involved with flight training and I just want to know that I am getting the most bang for my buck where flight training is concerned and that I attend an institution that is going to help me become the best pilot I can possibly be. I understand that a great deal will be on me, but I want to ensure that the school I attend is really going to give me the best foundation possible. A dedicated staff is very important to me. I also want to be in a place where if I need help, I ask for it, and I get it. I appreciate your input.
I am considering attending ATP. Please advise
- Thread starter mattadeen
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N826AW
Well-Known Member
Do a quick search on DCA and JetU here. You will find more info than you can digest. And the majority of it will be towards the negative.
I attended ATP for the 60 day Private Pilot Program and am in the middle of the 90 day ACP program. So far I am happy with my decision. I lucked out with 2 great instructors who taught me the importance of not just working to pass a checkride but to develop and improve my piloting skills. I have come across a few instructors (certainly the minority) who are less enthusiastic. My recommendation would be to visit the locations and get a feel for them.
There are a number of ways to skin the cat. ATP is a good option for some, and less so for others. It all depends on what works best for you. Luckily, you've found this great little website called Jetcareers to help you make your decision. Welcome and good luck!
I attended ATP for the 60 day Private Pilot Program and am in the middle of the 90 day ACP program. So far I am happy with my decision. I lucked out with 2 great instructors who taught me the importance of not just working to pass a checkride but to develop and improve my piloting skills. I have come across a few instructors (certainly the minority) who are less enthusiastic. My recommendation would be to visit the locations and get a feel for them.
There are a number of ways to skin the cat. ATP is a good option for some, and less so for others. It all depends on what works best for you. Luckily, you've found this great little website called Jetcareers to help you make your decision. Welcome and good luck!
SpiraMirabilis
Possible Subversive
I started ATP in the 60 day PPL program and I didn't have my written done but I finished it the first week I was there. (Hint: Take 60 question practice test, then click 'show me the questions I didn't answer', repeat until there are no questions unanswered, then click 'Show me the questions I answered incorrectly. Repeat until there are no uncorrect questions.)
The private pilot program in ATP is more sedate than the career program but both are still mostly immersion type learning systems and they don't hold your hand. They set it up so you can get a great deal out of it if you apply yourself but they won't feed it to you.
I enjoyed my time at ATP and would recommend it, especially if the other options are DCA and Jet U.
ATP's main selling point is time and cost. And by cost I don't mean they're the most inexpensive (they've gotten quite a bit more expensive lately) but that constant cost. You won't pay more than the price there.
The private pilot program in ATP is more sedate than the career program but both are still mostly immersion type learning systems and they don't hold your hand. They set it up so you can get a great deal out of it if you apply yourself but they won't feed it to you.
I enjoyed my time at ATP and would recommend it, especially if the other options are DCA and Jet U.
ATP's main selling point is time and cost. And by cost I don't mean they're the most inexpensive (they've gotten quite a bit more expensive lately) but that constant cost. You won't pay more than the price there.
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
"I would also like to know how you feel about ATP in general."
In general, I have no problem with ATP. I'm not a fan of going from PPL to CFI in 90 days and then jumping right into teaching the next generation. You can do just as well at many smaller schools at less cost. Might take a tad longer. Depends on where you look.
Flight training boils down to you (your effort), your CFI (his competence and experience level), and an airplane (balance between cost and quality). You might find that at ATP, and you might find it other places if you bother looking outside the fancy websites and flight training magazine ads.
One things for sure, though. Most people around here are dead set againt DCA and Jet U. Get you 10 posts in and do a search.
In general, I have no problem with ATP. I'm not a fan of going from PPL to CFI in 90 days and then jumping right into teaching the next generation. You can do just as well at many smaller schools at less cost. Might take a tad longer. Depends on where you look.
Flight training boils down to you (your effort), your CFI (his competence and experience level), and an airplane (balance between cost and quality). You might find that at ATP, and you might find it other places if you bother looking outside the fancy websites and flight training magazine ads.
One things for sure, though. Most people around here are dead set againt DCA and Jet U. Get you 10 posts in and do a search.
I agree with DE727UPS. I went through the entire program and wasn't impressed. Search my user name, I'm sure it'll come up. If you can deal with the ego's then go for it. It's pretty painless if your good at sucking it up. Not familiar with the other location but JAX/CRG was a terrible experience. Maybe times have changed but during my stay there the instructors seemed more concerned about coming up with new ways to be tools then your well being. DE I'm convinced is on the pay roll so as long as you don't raise any eye brows and cross your fingers that your not within his 10-20% failure rate you will pass. Anywho, there were good parts about it like getting done on time but the cost these days is way too expensive. The 400 hours of multi is nice but you'll get the same job with 100 hours. Anywho, feel free to PM me if ya feel the need to dig a little deeper into the s**t hole that is ATP.
BillH
New Member
You will love Stuart, you may just end up with me as one of your instructors there, who knows. A lot of people complain about Jacksonville, I was stuck there for three weeks during CFI school, and I was overly impressed by the instructors there, particularly Matt and Chad, both great guys and CFI's with a ton of dual given. Couple of my room mates there were doing the private thing. They seamed to like it, I helped them out with systems, like explaining to them the benefits of the constant speed prop on their DA40.(They never flown a fixed pitch prop before that)
Some people end up hating ATP, others end up loving it, I've seen both sides.
Bottom line is that it is a fast paced program, you are getting a lot done in a short period of time, and it is up to you to study and apply yourself. Slackers will get bitten hard. If you love to fly and go about things seriously, and on a mission, you will do fine. One of my room mates went to DCA for her private, heard her stories about that, well.. She's at ATP now if that tells you anything. I have no experience with DCA, my only other school I went to was an FBO, part 141 for my private. They flew me beyond the point that I was ready for the check ride. FBO's are almost never fixed cost, and will never send you off to a check ride before you are absolutely ready, the major downside to that is your pocket book will be hurting! I got through the private part though for just under 6 grand, and just under 50 hours. There was one kid there with 60 hours who never soloed yet! Every route has its good points and bad points.
In my opinion, the very best way to go about is to have your best friend who is your CFI give you all your training, and buy block time to get it done. Yeh, not usually doable for most...
Some people end up hating ATP, others end up loving it, I've seen both sides.
Bottom line is that it is a fast paced program, you are getting a lot done in a short period of time, and it is up to you to study and apply yourself. Slackers will get bitten hard. If you love to fly and go about things seriously, and on a mission, you will do fine. One of my room mates went to DCA for her private, heard her stories about that, well.. She's at ATP now if that tells you anything. I have no experience with DCA, my only other school I went to was an FBO, part 141 for my private. They flew me beyond the point that I was ready for the check ride. FBO's are almost never fixed cost, and will never send you off to a check ride before you are absolutely ready, the major downside to that is your pocket book will be hurting! I got through the private part though for just under 6 grand, and just under 50 hours. There was one kid there with 60 hours who never soloed yet! Every route has its good points and bad points.
In my opinion, the very best way to go about is to have your best friend who is your CFI give you all your training, and buy block time to get it done. Yeh, not usually doable for most...
I mean no disrespect to moose, but I am not sure he is talking about the same ATP that I know and BillH. Not by a long shot. The instructors there now are top notch and the DE is far from on the payroll. Everyone seems to care more and more about quality and professionalism. If there were some problems, they seem to be shrinking fast. I have a family member who wants to fly and I am recommending JaxATP without reservation. I think that says something.
Direct-enter-enter
New Member
ATP is what it is. They will get you ratings fast no more no less. In my opinion you may want to look at getting your PPL at an FBO. Take a little time and enjoy fllying, look outside, fly CC without flight following. Once you are at ATP every flight is meeting a req. with little to no time to smell the roses. What ever you do try not to forget that flying is fun, and not just a job with a funny hat!
True. ATP is what it is, BUT the idea that all I got was a rating and no education is a false idea. Now, I know that is not what was said, but it was what was implied, whether on purpose or accident. I did get my private at a local FBO. It was a good experience, but I received two hours of ground school- period. Everything I got I did on my own. Learning to fly is like grad school- not grade school. You get out what you put in. ATP is not perfect, but the product is undeniable. I am completely comfortable flying a light to medium twin in actual IMC to minimums and had the opportunity to do so on many flights at ATP. You can not be that comfortable without an education- flight training alone wont do it. NO, the instructors are not perfect, but they are a great representation of the typical flight instructor in the different flight schools I have been to in RDU and SAV. And, I look forward to my chance to instruct there as well.
Direct-enter-enter
New Member
I do not think that there was anything in my post to suggest that you do not get an education at ATP. There may be some examiners in the world that just hand out ratings, but I have never seen one at ATP, thus the pilots here must be learning. In addition if ATP students did not know anything then PA-44's would rain from the skies, I have yet to be hit by a plummeting Seminole so we must be doing someting right. However, what I want to point out is that ATP is very focused. Here there is little time to stop and smell the proverbial roses. I just think that for someone to have their first aviation experience so structured that they might miss out. I whish I had the time, or money, to go find out if a gyro-copter really is as much fun as it looks like. Once a person is set on the field of aviation, and they are addicted to the point that there is no going back, then ATP is a great idea. Jump in head first!! ATP is an ok to above average place, with GREAT people. It is the quality of the instructors here which keeps this company at the top of what they do. But don't expect to take a plane up just to go look at your house, or to see who is at the pool. Ok I am done with my little rant.
steps off soap box
D-E-E
steps off soap box
D-E-E
Clocks
Well-Known Member
Wasn't that in the 80's?
I imagine it varies quite a bit by location as well. I can see a "conflict of interest" when a jacksonville DE's sole income (well over >$200k/year) is provided by working full time at an ATP location. I also heard rumors that ATP closely tracks examiner pass rates around the country, and will "black list" the ones with high bust rates if they don't shape up (I didn't experience that, just rumors). But it has got to be hard for the examiners since "losing ATPs business" could in theory mean a big loss in income when even a medium sized ATP location is sending an average DE five $300+ rides a week.
Even if that's true, when you get away from jacksonville the examiners are the same folks who do the rides at the other local FBOs. Some are hard, some are easy, most are very fair.
aerospacepilot
New Member
I personally think you should get your training at a local FBO (like DE727UPS said). Here are a few key points I want to make about going to ATP.
1. You can get your training as fast (or faster) at a local FBO than you can at ATP.
There is no secret as to how ATP trains people so fast. All you do is fly a lot. You can fly as often as you want at an FBO too. The nice part is YOU are in control of your schedule. If you want to fly your butt off one week, and take the weekend off the next week, you can do that. At ATP, you are on THEIR schedule. You cannot make that choice. You can get all your ratings in under 5 months at a local FBO, you just have to fly everyday.
2. ATP costs about $30,000 more than most local FBO's!
$30,000 is a big deal to most people. It should be to you too. At ATP, it costs $64,000 to get all your licenses and ratings. At a local FBO with reasonable rates, it should cost about $35,000 to get all your licenses and ratings. If you don't believe me, PM me aircraft rates, instructor costs, and any joining/member fees, and I will give you a very accurate budget. Think of all the things you could buy with the $30,000 you saved by not going to ATP. ATP is just expensive brand named flight training. It is no better than any local FBO, in fact it is probably lower quality. Don't waste $30,000.
3. The quality of instruction at ATP is probably not as good as the instruction you get at a local FBO
This varies person to person, flight school to flight school. But allow me to point out some general trends. At ATP, they train you just enough to pass the checkride. By going so fast, there is no way you absorbed everything you were supposed to learn.
The instructors at ATP may not be the best either. ATP's program is designed for brand new instructors to come in, teach for a few months, and then move on. No one stays at ATP as a career instructor. So you do not have the benefit of their extensive experience. Doing my training at a local FBO, almost all of my instruction has been with instructors who have had more than 10,000 hours. Go into ATP and tell them you want an instructor with just 2,000 hours. They will laugh at you. At a local FBO, you have a much better chance of getting an instructor who has been around the block a few times. Learning from experience is one of the best and most valuable ways to learn. Period. At ATP, there is a damn good chance your instructor (the person entrusted with your safety, and the person directly responsible for your learning) had never touched an airplane 6 months ago!! That's just the way it is.
If you truly want to get the most out of your training, you should get an experienced instructor at a local FBO.
4. Airlines do not care where you got your training from
With the way regional airlines are hiring, there is no big advantage getting training from ATP. That RJ standards course is not required, and it is just a waste of $6,000. None of the good regional airlines (ExpressJet, Horizon, Republic, and Skywest) will lower their minimums even 1 hour because you have this unnecessary course.
Going to ATP will not let you get ahead anymore than someone else who trained fast at their local FBO.
Where do you live? I would recommend going to www.airnav.com, typing in the 3 letter identifier for your local airport, scroll down to airport businesses, and then check out all the websites for flight training schools. Right below the aviation businesses section is a section for nearby airports with an instrument approach. Check out any nearby airports, and see what their flight schools have to offer. Flight training at a local FBO is a much better choice than going to ATP.
I hope you make the right decision for yourself.
Let us know what you decide.
1. You can get your training as fast (or faster) at a local FBO than you can at ATP.
There is no secret as to how ATP trains people so fast. All you do is fly a lot. You can fly as often as you want at an FBO too. The nice part is YOU are in control of your schedule. If you want to fly your butt off one week, and take the weekend off the next week, you can do that. At ATP, you are on THEIR schedule. You cannot make that choice. You can get all your ratings in under 5 months at a local FBO, you just have to fly everyday.
2. ATP costs about $30,000 more than most local FBO's!
$30,000 is a big deal to most people. It should be to you too. At ATP, it costs $64,000 to get all your licenses and ratings. At a local FBO with reasonable rates, it should cost about $35,000 to get all your licenses and ratings. If you don't believe me, PM me aircraft rates, instructor costs, and any joining/member fees, and I will give you a very accurate budget. Think of all the things you could buy with the $30,000 you saved by not going to ATP. ATP is just expensive brand named flight training. It is no better than any local FBO, in fact it is probably lower quality. Don't waste $30,000.
3. The quality of instruction at ATP is probably not as good as the instruction you get at a local FBO
This varies person to person, flight school to flight school. But allow me to point out some general trends. At ATP, they train you just enough to pass the checkride. By going so fast, there is no way you absorbed everything you were supposed to learn.
The instructors at ATP may not be the best either. ATP's program is designed for brand new instructors to come in, teach for a few months, and then move on. No one stays at ATP as a career instructor. So you do not have the benefit of their extensive experience. Doing my training at a local FBO, almost all of my instruction has been with instructors who have had more than 10,000 hours. Go into ATP and tell them you want an instructor with just 2,000 hours. They will laugh at you. At a local FBO, you have a much better chance of getting an instructor who has been around the block a few times. Learning from experience is one of the best and most valuable ways to learn. Period. At ATP, there is a damn good chance your instructor (the person entrusted with your safety, and the person directly responsible for your learning) had never touched an airplane 6 months ago!! That's just the way it is.
If you truly want to get the most out of your training, you should get an experienced instructor at a local FBO.
4. Airlines do not care where you got your training from
With the way regional airlines are hiring, there is no big advantage getting training from ATP. That RJ standards course is not required, and it is just a waste of $6,000. None of the good regional airlines (ExpressJet, Horizon, Republic, and Skywest) will lower their minimums even 1 hour because you have this unnecessary course.
Going to ATP will not let you get ahead anymore than someone else who trained fast at their local FBO.
Where do you live? I would recommend going to www.airnav.com, typing in the 3 letter identifier for your local airport, scroll down to airport businesses, and then check out all the websites for flight training schools. Right below the aviation businesses section is a section for nearby airports with an instrument approach. Check out any nearby airports, and see what their flight schools have to offer. Flight training at a local FBO is a much better choice than going to ATP.
I hope you make the right decision for yourself.
Let us know what you decide.
Clocks
Well-Known Member
I will add, however, that 5 of the 16 people in my class at xjet attended ATP in some way (either CFI addons, or the full program). Several people in the next class did as well.
So if you decide to go to ATP, you won't be ignored by airlines either, despite how much anti-ATP there is on jetcareers from some posters (some of it legitimate). So don't think this anti-ATP mentality exists in the real world as much as it does here.
aerospacepilot
New Member
That is correct. While you certainly WILL NOT have an advantage by going to ATP, you will not be at a disadvantage either (well, except maybe the extra $30,000 in debt).
Hmm. Interesting conversation going on here. Being new to the forums I do not know who aerospace and 727 are, but I cant really believe that either one of them have ANY current experience with the JAX ATP location. Being familiar with ATP in a current kind of way I find the idea that the DE is in ATP's pocket as down right laughable. ANYONE who is now studying at ATP or passing through taking checkrides at the JAX location has to be rolling on the floor laughing at 727's suggestion that the DE is "in the pocket." I have trained in other locations and have personal experience in JAX with the DE in question. His failure rate is on par with the region, period. It is a tough grueling experience. I am sure 727's and aerospace's opinion's sound logical to anyone not familiar with the current ATP, but I can say without question that anyone who has trained in jax and gone through the checkride hell that that DE puts them through is laughing their butts off at that kind of ignorance.
While I whole heartedly agree that ATP has its flaws, I see that the grads are getting JUST what they wanted and just what they paid for- the kind of training that puts them in their airline job faster than elsewhere. I have gone the FBO route (CA and GA and some in FL) and the ATP (ATL and JAX) route and have current personal experience. Aerospace needs to adjust his figures to include current multi rental prices that allow you to fly cross country and build time. What drew me to ATP was the ability to build PIC ME time. Kind of hard to do in the FBO world.
No disrespect was meant, but the inconsistencies were just to glaring not to comment on. By the way, if you dont mind me asking, when was the last time either of you trained at ATP or JAX in particular? Wish you all well.
While I whole heartedly agree that ATP has its flaws, I see that the grads are getting JUST what they wanted and just what they paid for- the kind of training that puts them in their airline job faster than elsewhere. I have gone the FBO route (CA and GA and some in FL) and the ATP (ATL and JAX) route and have current personal experience. Aerospace needs to adjust his figures to include current multi rental prices that allow you to fly cross country and build time. What drew me to ATP was the ability to build PIC ME time. Kind of hard to do in the FBO world.
No disrespect was meant, but the inconsistencies were just to glaring not to comment on. By the way, if you dont mind me asking, when was the last time either of you trained at ATP or JAX in particular? Wish you all well.
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
"Hand out ratings", in my case, was giving an MEI on the basis of the ATP checkride, so long as I paid the price for the MEI course. Never sat in the right seat, nor did any training for the MEI, but I walked out that day with an MEI. It was the LGB location and it was some time ago. But it did happen.
I didn't mean to imply that DE's give ATP guys easy rides, maybe somebody else did. My CP moonlights as a DE in RAL and does ATP guys. I'm sure he has the same standard for ATP and non-ATP.
I didn't mean to imply that DE's give ATP guys easy rides, maybe somebody else did. My CP moonlights as a DE in RAL and does ATP guys. I'm sure he has the same standard for ATP and non-ATP.
Asta
New Member
I second that. I respect Don's frequently articulated opinions in the great ongoing FBO vs ATP debate and think he is largely correct: that an FBO with the right planes and the right CFI can train you better than the "mills" for cheaper. (In theory.)
But, after looking at many, many FBOs in the NY area I've found it very hard to get the aforementioned "right CFI" with the "right planes." My concern about ATP is that you have low-timers teaching low-timers, but in the current market the only CFIs out there seem to be low-timers; even at established FBOs there are few or none of the grizzled old air force vets, such as the gentleman who taught me how to fly.
Further, there are very few FBOs set up to train on twins. Few even have a twin, and those that do have only one, usually a Duchess or Twin Commanche. Nice planes, but $200-250/ hr wet without the instructor. I did find one FBO with a Twin Star, for $350 /hr--expensive and probably not the best twin trainer.
Also, the price at FBOs (at least in my region) is very expensive. For the same ratings at ATP, these schools are charging $45K-55K, but with most of the time in single-engines and only about 60 hours in twins, compared to more than double that with ATP.
Last, most FBOs seem kind of mystified when you tell them you want a "professional pilot program," tell them the ratings you want to earn, and the time you'd like to build. They will tell you, "OK, we'll put something together for you," but the fact is most FBOs are not set up for this. Any program will be strictly ad hoc.
So . . . after flirting with going to an FBO, I'm back to considering ATP my first choice. I kinda wish I could do my IFR at an FBO I found--great old school instructor--but I'm not sure if ATP would credit me the $10K+ this school would charge for the rating.
N826AW
Well-Known Member
I met him briefly during my 3-day vacation
in RAL last month when he was doing an instrument ride. Very interesting guy.