intern_mike
E-175 f/o
Why are you concerned with the opinions of a student pilot when you hold the PPL?? As far as I'm concerned his opinion means d*ck otherwise. And telling you when he thinks you should turn base?! WTF does he know?
How would you handle this?
- Thread starter captainphil
- Start date
Why are you concerned with the opinions of a student pilot when you hold the PPL?? As far as I'm concerned his opinion means d*ck otherwise. And telling you when he thinks you should turn base?! WTF does he know?
PeterPilot
New Member
I see the days of "coffee, tea, or me" slipping away before my very eyes.
captainphil
Well-Known Member
Well even as a student, I still am open to his opinions if he wants to make some, but that does not mean he should determine how I fly the plane . It's a good thing he's not PIC because if he did make that decision to turn base, it could have been to close to the other plane. I'm just glad his first solo went ok without problems.
youngflyer
Well-Known Member
You know, I have flown with a bunch of other pilots, but there is one who I will just refuse to fly with. It is one thing giving some criticism, but he is a brand new pp and basically if your technique is not exactly the same as his, he thinks it is the wrong way. For example, I lean the mixture on the ground. He claims that leaning on the ground damages the engine and whenever I lean the mixture, he puts it back even when I am pic. Other than that he can just be so arrogant for no apparent reason that I have just stopped flying with him.
You don't have much time do you, because you seem awfully insecure. Maybe you need to spend more time SOLO buzzing around the pattern until you feel confident in your abilities. You just stated that he just completed it FIRST solo, his experience level is basically nil. You spend all this time on here talking about how you are the PIC and how you shouldn't trust someone in the front seat that is scared of stalling. That all tells me that you are insecure. You signed for the plane, you are the only one with a ticket, YOU ARE THE PIC, ACT LIKE IT! You guys sound like a couple of 7th grade girls with your little cat fight. You know when to turn base, so turn when it's appropriate. You don't have to explain anything. Like I said earlier, if he is pointing out traffic, great; anything else is just a waste of your energy to get upset about.
TheresaPilot
Well-Known Member
Sounds like a guy I flew with a while back that was a doctor. :whatever:
Don't put up with his attitude. You're completely correct, you are the PIC and responsible for his safety and your own. He has absolutely no authority in the aircraft WHATSOEVER. He sounds like the guy that pulls the "pilot card" out at the bars... :whatever::whatever::whatever:
Don't put up with his attitude. You're completely correct, you are the PIC and responsible for his safety and your own. He has absolutely no authority in the aircraft WHATSOEVER. He sounds like the guy that pulls the "pilot card" out at the bars... :whatever::whatever::whatever:
HeyEng
Well-Known Member
Simple...if he truly YOUR FRIEND...tell him like it is. Stop messing around and have a REAL come-to-Jesus talk with him, but NOT IN THE PLANE. If he keeps up, either (A) leave him at home or (B) disconnect his headset.
I wouldn't stand for it...CRM is a great thing, but as PIC, YOU are the final authority. The feds will be gunning for your certs, not his.
I wouldn't stand for it...CRM is a great thing, but as PIC, YOU are the final authority. The feds will be gunning for your certs, not his.
OregonTrail
Well-Known Member
I am sure when he got off the ground he talked down and dirty to the airplane calling it his "woman" then came around on final and cried like a baby saying "im sorry baby, please land for me"
If not that is the picture im getting from this guy haha
coa787
Unknown Member
Fixed it.
CDNPilotDave
Well-Known Member
Number 1: You are PIC (FAR 91.3)
Number 2: See #1.
End of story for who's decision it is when and where to turn base.
It sounds to me as though you are having self-confidence issues. Don't. It's alright to seek and listen to other's opinions if you are unsure, but ultimately your actions are your choice. Keep yourself in a safe position; avoid occupying the same space/time coordinates as any other traffic but if your engine were to fail could you dead stick land your airplane? As far as your ROTC/right seat "crew" goes, ask him if he is familiar with chain of command and remind him that you are his superior per FAR 91.3. Disrespect will result in immediate loss of flight privileges, altitude be damned. Experience will help your confidence. Fly often.
Number 2: See #1.
End of story for who's decision it is when and where to turn base.
It sounds to me as though you are having self-confidence issues. Don't. It's alright to seek and listen to other's opinions if you are unsure, but ultimately your actions are your choice. Keep yourself in a safe position; avoid occupying the same space/time coordinates as any other traffic but if your engine were to fail could you dead stick land your airplane? As far as your ROTC/right seat "crew" goes, ask him if he is familiar with chain of command and remind him that you are his superior per FAR 91.3. Disrespect will result in immediate loss of flight privileges, altitude be damned. Experience will help your confidence. Fly often.
WalterSobchak
Well-Known Member
Briefing is probably a little to anal for me, but his lack of respect for you being the PIC(and only certified pilot onboard) would piss me off. The only time I briefed any one during GA was on check rides or if they knew nothing of aviation. I would have landed and then gave him an ear full about the abse to final stuff. Youre the PIC don't take the guy flying again.
It's like the "we card program". Use common sense if the person has a grey beard or something. Don't be a robot it will piss people off.
It's like the "we card program". Use common sense if the person has a grey beard or something. Don't be a robot it will piss people off.
Joe Gremlin
Well-Known Member
I'm going to disagree a little bit with most folks who have already tackled the question at hand in the thread. I have a couple of names for the type of interaction that I quoted above. When I'm being nice I call it playing the PIC card. When I'm being blunt I call it a good old fashioned certificate cock fight. In so many words you're telling him my certificate is better than your certificate so sit down and shut up. This makes you come across as being the first name of our most recent former vice president.
Someone in the thread congratulated you on being tactful. I disagree. The quote above lacks tact IMO. There is no need for a cert cock fight when a simple 'I'm flying the plane and I prefer to do it this way' will do. Works much better when you're in the middle of a flight IMO. If you pull the PIC card on a know it all in flight, you're just as likely to piss them off and make them bug you more as you are to shut them up. Once you're on the ground you can compare genital sizes and argue about measurement technique all you like. But in the air, a gentle but firm 'this is the way I choose to do it' generally works better IME.
While we're on the subject I should mention that you're going to find that no matter how many certs you get and how many hours you log, you'll always run into someone who will argue their point by starting a cert/logbook cock fight. And you're going to find that just as I've pointed out here, every time that happens to you, you will have a tendancy to immediately write the person in question off. Pulling your cert on someone and reminding them that you outrank them isn't being tactful, its being Cheney's first name. Don't be a Cheney.
c172captain
Well-Known Member
When I get someone like this in the cockpit ( only if I'm the person flying; if they're flying I leave them alone unless they put my life in danger and thats a whole nother discussion) I just tell them that however they want to do it is fine, but this is how I'm doing it.
I don't think I've said "I'm PIC so listen to me" but I have said "You're not doing that with me in the plane" or "I'm not doing that while I'm flying the plane". I don't care if I'm rude or tactful, if someone is nagging me to do something their way just because they don't like the way I do it, I tell them to mind their own business. Obviously I wouldn't say that if A-I really was doing something wrong or B-I was creating a hazard using "my way".
I don't think I've said "I'm PIC so listen to me" but I have said "You're not doing that with me in the plane" or "I'm not doing that while I'm flying the plane". I don't care if I'm rude or tactful, if someone is nagging me to do something their way just because they don't like the way I do it, I tell them to mind their own business. Obviously I wouldn't say that if A-I really was doing something wrong or B-I was creating a hazard using "my way".
cool92092
Well-Known Member
I agree with the Gremlin. So if he was a commercial pilot would you have said, ok I'll turn base now? No, it's simple, I'm flying and I prefer to do it this way.
And as to the my PPL is better than your Third class medical crowd - I've know students that were not yet done with their checkride that could fly circles around certificated ppl's, so just because someone is behind you in training doesn't mean their opinion is worth Richard.
And as to the my PPL is better than your Third class medical crowd - I've know students that were not yet done with their checkride that could fly circles around certificated ppl's, so just because someone is behind you in training doesn't mean their opinion is worth Richard.
Cessna414JJB
Unknown Member
What does a PVT do - flying with a non certificated pilot anyways?
Is there some sort of instruction going on? I do not expect a PVT and a student pilot to exercise well thought our CRM. I just usually joke about open and hardcore violence, like always in life there is a neat way to handle it. Don't fly with that person...
If I want to argue - I'll fly with a Fed.
falconvalley
Absentee Dad of the OOTSK, Runner, Cat Frustrator
Give captainphil a break. He's a relatively new pilot. He's doing the best he can with the skills he already has. The last thing he wants to hear is someone telling him he has "confidence issues" or the likes of that. I had a trillion questions when I was a private pilot. I had disagreements with other pilots and had similar encounters with people like the one he's described. I never questioned my ability to fly the airplane safely, but I also knew there were other ways of going about it. There are good ways to approach disagreements and bad ways. It is definitely NOT an easy skill to master and I applaud captain phil for seeking advice. I actually don't know if phil was tactful in return, but he certainly was right to be concerned about how his friend approached their concerns.
A good PIC will always strive to maintain "control" when they are the only PIC. A good PIC will also know when to act to avoid confrontation. Confrontation is, unfortunately, a reality in aviation at times and can be avoided by avoiding flight altogether. Nobody should have to sit in the seat and concentrate a ton of energy on establishing their position as PIC. If you have to go beyond just stating and the other understanding, then there's a problem.
A good PIC will always strive to maintain "control" when they are the only PIC. A good PIC will also know when to act to avoid confrontation. Confrontation is, unfortunately, a reality in aviation at times and can be avoided by avoiding flight altogether. Nobody should have to sit in the seat and concentrate a ton of energy on establishing their position as PIC. If you have to go beyond just stating and the other understanding, then there's a problem.
I've found when I take other pilots flying with me that the amount of PIC-pissing is inversely proportional to the amount of experience of the other pilot. I've had a couple former and current airline and military pilots right-seat with me, and have never had a single issue with them attempting to usurp my command. Almost every low-time GA pilot that I've flown with, especially low-time products of 141 schools like my current school, seems to try to make a power grab.
When I'm flying low-time pilots or students, I make it very clear that I'm open to their input and value having their experience in the cockpit but that I have the responsibility to ensure the safe completion of the flight. As a pretty darn low-time pilot myself I'm always trying to learn from others...but having someone try to wrestle the controls from me or start pushing buttons without asking to do things their way isn't how I'd like to learn!
I always try to remember to do a crew briefing with the other pilot before the flight to ensure that we're both clear on our roles--positive transfer of flight controls and not touching any flight controls or instruments without the permission of the PF is my biggest item to clarify. Another item I cover is what we'll do in an actual emergency. A low-altitude engine failure is a really bad time to be arguing about who's flying.
When I'm flying low-time pilots or students, I make it very clear that I'm open to their input and value having their experience in the cockpit but that I have the responsibility to ensure the safe completion of the flight. As a pretty darn low-time pilot myself I'm always trying to learn from others...but having someone try to wrestle the controls from me or start pushing buttons without asking to do things their way isn't how I'd like to learn!
I always try to remember to do a crew briefing with the other pilot before the flight to ensure that we're both clear on our roles--positive transfer of flight controls and not touching any flight controls or instruments without the permission of the PF is my biggest item to clarify. Another item I cover is what we'll do in an actual emergency. A low-altitude engine failure is a really bad time to be arguing about who's flying.