How much does mathematics REALLY have to do with aviation?
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ILSstud
Well-Known Member
Re: How much does mathematics REALLY have to do with aviatio
Sounds like my aerospace engineering degree....
...you could go down that path too. It's actually really interesting being a pilot AND an engineer in that you get a really nice 3D picture of how it all fits together. Then again, if the math is scaring you away, don't bother 
Sounds like my aerospace engineering degree....
...you could go down that path too. It's actually really interesting being a pilot AND an engineer in that you get a really nice 3D picture of how it all fits together. Then again, if the math is scaring you away, don't bother 
WacoFan
Bigly
Re: How much does mathematics REALLY have to do with aviatio
OK guys...I am NOT picking on the people I quoted...and am only using them as an example of people on this thread and in life in general. Math is hated, feared and usually not excelled at. That is sad.
Do me a favor - read the above quotes and substitute "reading" for the word "math". Can you imagine going to a party, or writing on an interweb forum and saying things like "I really suck at reading", or "I only read the minimum amount I have to because I am bad at it" or "I only took the very basic reading because I don't need it every day"?
There is a social stigma to illiteracy - it is sad and pathetic and a cause close to my Mother's heart. We are active readers and we understand that life would be much less without it.
So...why is illiteracy stigmatized and innumeracy not stigmatized? Many of the great thinkers have been mathematicians. An understanding of math helps in understanding the larger world in general but more than anything it imposes a logic to your thought process. Understanding mathematics helps you cut through much BS that you encounter every day - from misleading or skewed statistics presented on the news to being able to see through sales pitches from salesman trying to sell you anything from insurance to cars to marital aids. In fact, if you get good at math you can turn the tables on the tricky salesman and abuse them for a change.
Sorry for the rant...I have just never understood why seemingly intelligent people - people that are so very literate and well read and responsible - can blithely go around broadcasting their innumeracy to the world.
Putting on helmet and asbestos suit now...
BTW, I can barely count to ten without use of my fingers.
OK guys...I am NOT picking on the people I quoted...and am only using them as an example of people on this thread and in life in general. Math is hated, feared and usually not excelled at. That is sad.
Do me a favor - read the above quotes and substitute "reading" for the word "math". Can you imagine going to a party, or writing on an interweb forum and saying things like "I really suck at reading", or "I only read the minimum amount I have to because I am bad at it" or "I only took the very basic reading because I don't need it every day"?
There is a social stigma to illiteracy - it is sad and pathetic and a cause close to my Mother's heart. We are active readers and we understand that life would be much less without it.
So...why is illiteracy stigmatized and innumeracy not stigmatized? Many of the great thinkers have been mathematicians. An understanding of math helps in understanding the larger world in general but more than anything it imposes a logic to your thought process. Understanding mathematics helps you cut through much BS that you encounter every day - from misleading or skewed statistics presented on the news to being able to see through sales pitches from salesman trying to sell you anything from insurance to cars to marital aids. In fact, if you get good at math you can turn the tables on the tricky salesman and abuse them for a change.
Sorry for the rant...I have just never understood why seemingly intelligent people - people that are so very literate and well read and responsible - can blithely go around broadcasting their innumeracy to the world.
Putting on helmet and asbestos suit now...
thepedroid
Well-Known Member
Re: How much does mathematics REALLY have to do with aviatio
I don't think you're friend will be a good pilot. He can't even do simple math.....hmmmm....lemme think.
200,000k divided by 15 years to pay off, times interest coupled with first year FO pay.....ummmmm.....screw it, I'm getting a beer.:banghead:
btw....i'm not a pilot and haven't finished college yet so anything I say doesn't mean much. On a more serious note, keep doing what you're doing. Get a degree in what makes you happy and you will do just fine.
I don't think you're friend will be a good pilot. He can't even do simple math.....hmmmm....lemme think.
200,000k divided by 15 years to pay off, times interest coupled with first year FO pay.....ummmmm.....screw it, I'm getting a beer.:banghead:
btw....i'm not a pilot and haven't finished college yet so anything I say doesn't mean much. On a more serious note, keep doing what you're doing. Get a degree in what makes you happy and you will do just fine.
Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
Re: How much does mathematics REALLY have to do with aviatio
My minor was in the history of math and science, which, contrary to what you might assume (and most do), actually requires a reasonable familiarity with (although not a great talent for) middle-order math. Say anything up to and including multi-variable calculus. I can't claim that it's done me much good in my flying career, but it's certainly affected my understanding of the world around me in what I would characterize as a positive way. Even on a sort of conversational/philosophical level, exploring what exactly it is we're talking about when we use numbers to describe things is pretty fascinating stuff. For example: What does it mean to say I have two beers and two cigarettes (other than I'm undersupplied)?...As in what is the similarity between those things I have? There are two of each of them...but wtf is "two"...what does that describe? Or, if you prefer, transfinite numbers...what does it mean to say that I can have two infinite sets (1,2,3,4...etc) and (2,4,6,8...etc), but that one of them is "bigger" than the other? If questions like that interest you, why not pick up a little math along the way? The worst thing that can happen is you find out it bores you to tears...no harm no foul.
That said, no, no one cares what you studied in school, as far as I can tell.
My minor was in the history of math and science, which, contrary to what you might assume (and most do), actually requires a reasonable familiarity with (although not a great talent for) middle-order math. Say anything up to and including multi-variable calculus. I can't claim that it's done me much good in my flying career, but it's certainly affected my understanding of the world around me in what I would characterize as a positive way. Even on a sort of conversational/philosophical level, exploring what exactly it is we're talking about when we use numbers to describe things is pretty fascinating stuff. For example: What does it mean to say I have two beers and two cigarettes (other than I'm undersupplied)?...As in what is the similarity between those things I have? There are two of each of them...but wtf is "two"...what does that describe? Or, if you prefer, transfinite numbers...what does it mean to say that I can have two infinite sets (1,2,3,4...etc) and (2,4,6,8...etc), but that one of them is "bigger" than the other? If questions like that interest you, why not pick up a little math along the way? The worst thing that can happen is you find out it bores you to tears...no harm no foul.
That said, no, no one cares what you studied in school, as far as I can tell.
WacoFan
Bigly
Re: How much does mathematics REALLY have to do with aviatio
Hey Boris...empty your mailbox.
Hey Boris...empty your mailbox.
ATC RET 2003
No More Vectors
Re: How much does mathematics REALLY have to do with aviatio
If flying is anything like ATC, you'll use some form of math for about a third of it. You won't need it at all for the other half.
If flying is anything like ATC, you'll use some form of math for about a third of it. You won't need it at all for the other half.
ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
Re: How much does mathematics REALLY have to do with aviatio
How can you say that? That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. There is no knowledge endeavor that is worthless to flying, even understanding art-history will aid you in your ability to take in info, process it, and send it out in the appropriate way. All learning is good for flying, because flying is learning.
How can you say that? That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. There is no knowledge endeavor that is worthless to flying, even understanding art-history will aid you in your ability to take in info, process it, and send it out in the appropriate way. All learning is good for flying, because flying is learning.
Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
Re: How much does mathematics REALLY have to do with aviatio
Very well said. I generally eschew "yeah that"s, but this is spot on. Even if it doesn't directly help you operate the transportation-appliance, knowing things will make you a happier, more productive human being. Count on it.
Very well said. I generally eschew "yeah that"s, but this is spot on. Even if it doesn't directly help you operate the transportation-appliance, knowing things will make you a happier, more productive human being. Count on it.
granlistillo
Well-Known Member
Re: How much does mathematics REALLY have to do with aviatio
:yup:
Cream will rise to the top and stuff that goes out the other end will eventually be flushed.
For the OP, if you want to be an average to below average run of the mill pilot, by all means only master addition, subtraction, division and multiplication. You can get hired at Xjet for a year and then go to law school. We can all then benefit from your wisdom on the boards for years on your entry level experience.
You want to go to Cathay Pacific? You want to be a test pilot? An astronaut? You want to be a recognized leader in the industry? How about an expert in the many fields available to aviators?
Devour all the math and science you can, now. Whether you use it or not on a daily basis is not a pertinent question.
:yup:
Cream will rise to the top and stuff that goes out the other end will eventually be flushed.
For the OP, if you want to be an average to below average run of the mill pilot, by all means only master addition, subtraction, division and multiplication. You can get hired at Xjet for a year and then go to law school. We can all then benefit from your wisdom on the boards for years on your entry level experience.
You want to go to Cathay Pacific? You want to be a test pilot? An astronaut? You want to be a recognized leader in the industry? How about an expert in the many fields available to aviators?
Devour all the math and science you can, now. Whether you use it or not on a daily basis is not a pertinent question.
ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
Re: How much does mathematics REALLY have to do with aviatio
Or tell us about how much a freight dawg you are when you worked as a cfi at amflight, yeah. It kind of irked me too. I'll tell you what, I used some math which was more than basic adding and subtracting flying as a freight FO, calculating distance around a DME arc for descents, planning max endurance fuel for long flights, understanding the theory behind our systems. No math there at all. Nope, nada.
Or tell us about how much a freight dawg you are when you worked as a cfi at amflight, yeah. It kind of irked me too. I'll tell you what, I used some math which was more than basic adding and subtracting flying as a freight FO, calculating distance around a DME arc for descents, planning max endurance fuel for long flights, understanding the theory behind our systems. No math there at all. Nope, nada.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
Re: How much does mathematics REALLY have to do with aviatio
Cute, and a good lecture for your daughter, but the real world is somewhat different.
I've excelled at writing and logic, but to this day I still read much slower than I talk/think and have been outright horrible at math.
Now this isn't to say I haven't taken a decent amount of math. Three years of high school math, plus dual enrolling trig. at a local college my senior year, plus algebra II and pre-calc at the university isn't exactly slouching on math. That being said, I'm not any good at it. Believe me, it wasn't for lack of trying/taking classes in math, but to be frank I'm never going to get higher end math, nor do I care to.
The fact of life is that we all have our strengths and weaknesses, and we should cater to those strengths as much as possible. While a certain minimum standard should be met for all subject areas, the idea that we will ALL be math wizards is disingenuous. I don't have the unrealistic expectation that the entire world is going to keep up with me in political theory analysis (except for murdoughnut), although I think it's an incredibly valuable skill. The same could be said for conversations about phenomonology or the writings of Socrates. Does the rest of the world need to have a full understanding of Berkeley's views on reality? I think they should, but to hold the world to such an unrealisitic expectation is akin to expecting everybody in the world to be able to do multivariable calculas with a slide ruler. Sure it makes you sound like you're smart, and my grandfather was great at it, but some people simply won't get it.
So meet the minimum standard in the areas where you have to, where you do poorly, and excell where ever it is that you excell. Not everybody is going to be a lawyer, a doctor, a pilot or an actor. But individuals should develop their natural talents in the areas where they exist. I will never understand theoritical physics, but I have a sneaking suspicion that I'll make it through a J.D. program without my head exploding.
In the world you're describing, I'd still be a dunce with a post graduate degree, but I don't think that's the case at all.
Cute, and a good lecture for your daughter, but the real world is somewhat different.
I've excelled at writing and logic, but to this day I still read much slower than I talk/think and have been outright horrible at math.
Now this isn't to say I haven't taken a decent amount of math. Three years of high school math, plus dual enrolling trig. at a local college my senior year, plus algebra II and pre-calc at the university isn't exactly slouching on math. That being said, I'm not any good at it. Believe me, it wasn't for lack of trying/taking classes in math, but to be frank I'm never going to get higher end math, nor do I care to.
The fact of life is that we all have our strengths and weaknesses, and we should cater to those strengths as much as possible. While a certain minimum standard should be met for all subject areas, the idea that we will ALL be math wizards is disingenuous. I don't have the unrealistic expectation that the entire world is going to keep up with me in political theory analysis (except for murdoughnut), although I think it's an incredibly valuable skill. The same could be said for conversations about phenomonology or the writings of Socrates. Does the rest of the world need to have a full understanding of Berkeley's views on reality? I think they should, but to hold the world to such an unrealisitic expectation is akin to expecting everybody in the world to be able to do multivariable calculas with a slide ruler. Sure it makes you sound like you're smart, and my grandfather was great at it, but some people simply won't get it.
So meet the minimum standard in the areas where you have to, where you do poorly, and excell where ever it is that you excell. Not everybody is going to be a lawyer, a doctor, a pilot or an actor. But individuals should develop their natural talents in the areas where they exist. I will never understand theoritical physics, but I have a sneaking suspicion that I'll make it through a J.D. program without my head exploding.
In the world you're describing, I'd still be a dunce with a post graduate degree, but I don't think that's the case at all.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
Re: How much does mathematics REALLY have to do with aviatio
Not much math there, unless you consider memorizing numbers math.
Oh and that DME arc? Most likely addition.
Endurance? Basic math.
Theory behind systems? You're not a mechanic, nor an engineer.
Basic math wins again.
You guys want to talk about astronauts (who have PhD's in engineering), or being an airline pilot? I mean let's cut the crap here and talk about something called scope eh?
Not much math there, unless you consider memorizing numbers math.
Oh and that DME arc? Most likely addition.
Endurance? Basic math.
Theory behind systems? You're not a mechanic, nor an engineer.
Basic math wins again.
You guys want to talk about astronauts (who have PhD's in engineering), or being an airline pilot? I mean let's cut the crap here and talk about something called scope eh?
ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
Re: How much does mathematics REALLY have to do with aviatio
Big difference between Post Grad in Math/Chemistry/Physics/Bio/Engineering/etc than one in Philosophy/History/English/Sociology/Humanities/etc. That doesn't mean you're an idiot, or less of a man.
You can literally be whatever you want. I don't know what people find so strange or difficult about this concept. Like there is actually some glass ceiling or maybe people are biologically less adept at some fields. Anything can be learned. Anyone can be the next Newton, or Dirac, or for that matter, anyone can be the next Goethe, or Kant. It just takes dedication and drive. Smarts and intelligence can be learned, people who I thought were dumb as a brick in highschool are now doing awesome in upper level math and physics classes, and vice versa.
Big difference between Post Grad in Math/Chemistry/Physics/Bio/Engineering/etc than one in Philosophy/History/English/Sociology/Humanities/etc. That doesn't mean you're an idiot, or less of a man.
You can literally be whatever you want. I don't know what people find so strange or difficult about this concept. Like there is actually some glass ceiling or maybe people are biologically less adept at some fields. Anything can be learned. Anyone can be the next Newton, or Dirac, or for that matter, anyone can be the next Goethe, or Kant. It just takes dedication and drive. Smarts and intelligence can be learned, people who I thought were dumb as a brick in highschool are now doing awesome in upper level math and physics classes, and vice versa.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
Re: How much does mathematics REALLY have to do with aviatio
Broseff, you've worked at PSA as long as I worked at ExpressJet.
Pot, kettle, black?
Broseff, you've worked at PSA as long as I worked at ExpressJet.
Pot, kettle, black?
ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
Re: How much does mathematics REALLY have to do with aviatio
DME arc? I solved for the percentage of the circle I was flying around, endurance, not really, its fairly algebraic, Theory behind systems, I'm not a mechanic or an engineer no, but that doesn't stop me from wanting to truly understand the deeper physical principles behind the operations of my equipment. Scope? Scope? What you're saying is that it doesn't help to know math better, and frankly, that's ludicrous. Read through aerodyn for naval aviators, then when you realize that that isn't exactly a good explanation, buy a text book on fluid mechanics, then learn how to solve for a couple of equations. Ask TGrayson how little math helps him out. All credibility == lost.
DME arc? I solved for the percentage of the circle I was flying around, endurance, not really, its fairly algebraic, Theory behind systems, I'm not a mechanic or an engineer no, but that doesn't stop me from wanting to truly understand the deeper physical principles behind the operations of my equipment. Scope? Scope? What you're saying is that it doesn't help to know math better, and frankly, that's ludicrous. Read through aerodyn for naval aviators, then when you realize that that isn't exactly a good explanation, buy a text book on fluid mechanics, then learn how to solve for a couple of equations. Ask TGrayson how little math helps him out. All credibility == lost.
granlistillo
Well-Known Member
Re: How much does mathematics REALLY have to do with aviatio
I did not mean to demean you personally, but rather the attitude and outlook in your postings.
The airline job started as a whim. Something I decided to do to take a break from my business. Oh, yes, if I leave tomorrow it has been a great experience and I hope to continue, but it does not define me. While I am here I will try to learn all I can. I do not want to just do the minimum.
In some respects I must admit our academic preferences are similar. I studied Political Science in both my undergraduate and graduate degrees. It has served me well in my military profession, and international business career. However, I have found that my math studies have been indespensible to my success in many areas, and I often lament that I didn't know more. To quote a Naval Officer mentor I had a while back: "Be like a sponge, bear... Be like a sponge."
I think if one wants to master this profession, he should opt for a well rounded education, including math. I was under the impression the OP was younger and at this stage in his life.
I did not mean to demean you personally, but rather the attitude and outlook in your postings.
The airline job started as a whim. Something I decided to do to take a break from my business. Oh, yes, if I leave tomorrow it has been a great experience and I hope to continue, but it does not define me. While I am here I will try to learn all I can. I do not want to just do the minimum.
In some respects I must admit our academic preferences are similar. I studied Political Science in both my undergraduate and graduate degrees. It has served me well in my military profession, and international business career. However, I have found that my math studies have been indespensible to my success in many areas, and I often lament that I didn't know more. To quote a Naval Officer mentor I had a while back: "Be like a sponge, bear... Be like a sponge."
I think if one wants to master this profession, he should opt for a well rounded education, including math. I was under the impression the OP was younger and at this stage in his life.
SIUav8er
Narcosis
Re: How much does mathematics REALLY have to do with aviatio
how does that help you on a day to day basis to be better, more competent pilot? Its great to know more than whats required, i doubt Jtrain will say its not. But is it really necissary? Not really. Studying the practical operation of your aircraft systems does not mean that you should be able to reverse engineer them. Knowing everything there is to know about fluid dynamics or any highly advanced physics having to do with aerodynamics is just "extra". I read the airplane flying handbook, PHAK, and stick and rudder... i think those books are about as deep into aerodynamics as any pilot would "need" to know! Practical operation of the aircraft in the "system", does not require you to fully study the geometry behind TERPS. Again, nice info to know and understand, but thats it in my opinion.
I think the scope of whats required to be a great, above average pilot has nothing to do with how many physics and advanced calculus classes you have taken.
I also think this thread strayed away from what the OP was originally asking... to add to the current conversation, I really believe that any for of higher education is important in life. If math happens to be your thing, go for it! It definitely applies to aerospace, but not really to flying an airplane.
how does that help you on a day to day basis to be better, more competent pilot? Its great to know more than whats required, i doubt Jtrain will say its not. But is it really necissary? Not really. Studying the practical operation of your aircraft systems does not mean that you should be able to reverse engineer them. Knowing everything there is to know about fluid dynamics or any highly advanced physics having to do with aerodynamics is just "extra". I read the airplane flying handbook, PHAK, and stick and rudder... i think those books are about as deep into aerodynamics as any pilot would "need" to know! Practical operation of the aircraft in the "system", does not require you to fully study the geometry behind TERPS. Again, nice info to know and understand, but thats it in my opinion.
I think the scope of whats required to be a great, above average pilot has nothing to do with how many physics and advanced calculus classes you have taken.
I also think this thread strayed away from what the OP was originally asking... to add to the current conversation, I really believe that any for of higher education is important in life. If math happens to be your thing, go for it! It definitely applies to aerospace, but not really to flying an airplane.
staplegun
Well-Known Member
Re: How much does mathematics REALLY have to do with aviatio
Bachelor of Arts from the University of Illinois in history.
Most advanced math course taken - high school algebra.
Navy Pilot, commuter pilot, major airline pilot.
Kevin
P.S. My son finished calculus in high school and is an Aerospace Engineering major at Iliinois with a minor in Math. He's taking a 400 level math course as a freshman - where did that come from?
Bachelor of Arts from the University of Illinois in history.
Most advanced math course taken - high school algebra.
Navy Pilot, commuter pilot, major airline pilot.
Kevin
P.S. My son finished calculus in high school and is an Aerospace Engineering major at Iliinois with a minor in Math. He's taking a 400 level math course as a freshman - where did that come from?