How many regional pilots can REALLY meet this requirement?

Exactly John...I have been through some hacked up programs (cough Dynamic cough) a good program that's getting better and a great program (cough SkyWest). Its much better when it's all thought out and well organized.
 
This is interesting. And I know you're not saying this is definitive evidence, so I'm not trying to beat you up over it, but I wonder about more details. For instance, what is FLX's washout rate across all new hires? What were the backgrounds of the airline pilots prior to becoming airline pilots? Did they spend much time as say, a CFI in /U aircraft before going to the airlines, or did they get hired during the boom with 300 hours TT? How long had they worked in the airlines?

They were CFI->regional guys. One guy had just come back from a stint in Africa flying all sorts of weird things. I have a feeling that guy's experience in Africa was very unstructured and seat of your pants/intuition kinds of flying. Your knowledge base kind of gets thrown out the window how it was that way for me.

I wonder if washing out is more a function of a person's background than their current skills. What I mean is, just because they washed out of FLX training doesn't mean they were incompetent pilots or were unsafe flying an RJ. It might have more to do with a lack of familiarity with "small planes" or not being able to adapt quickly enough to FLX's training program after spending a lengthy period of time in the 121/RJ world.

Their normal washout rate is something like 50-80% for just ground school. They just go really really damn fast and it doesn't cost them anything except a hotel room. What AMF covered in a week, FLX covered in a day. You really needed about a week prior to training to get that hot mess in your head and then that day in training to get it straightened out and usable. I had just come from survey flying and CFIing a year prior to that. My part 91/AIM knowledge was still fine. I struggled with getting back into the standardized flying thing. I mean the 210 has a wopping 2 extra things to do versus a 172 and you REALLY don't need checklists and flows to fly a 172. :D FLXs big thing in training is weather, weather theory, and how to use ALL the products. Not just the aviation ones either. Everyone seems to struggle with this. Not just the airline guys. Reason being is that you're by yourself, the dispatchers don't make any calls, and there's absolutely no cancelling. Only "when can you go". You have to be able to accurately make that call. Temp/dew point spread for when fog is going to start/lift for example.

Again, not saying you're lying, but I've learned to take statements like this with a grain of salt. I've heard other pilots talk about how intense Amflight's training is. Who's right?

FLXs challenge was the speed. They only spent 1 day going over 135 regs and the GOM. To give you an idea on the feel of the two. They're both plenty standardized, but training at FLX=here's your plane, don't die! AMF training was a bit more structured. They wanted to make sure you weren't going to go out and get the company fined or ball up an airplane. Getting rid of the asinine way they handle hazmat would probably be better though. :)

A lot of people say my company's training is intense, while I found it to be relatively mild, as evidenced by the fact that a hack like me could actually make it through. No, seriously, I mean it. Ask anyone who's flown with me. I'm not very good, and I know it. I just have a good attitude and keep plugging away until I get it.

I think one's perception of "intense" is largely shaped by their own flying background, coupled with the training captains they fly with. I came in to training with several thousand hours teaching in various piston powered flying machines, so it wasn't that big of a step to fly a piston twin here. I'm also very laid back, which certainly helped when I was paired with a couple head-spinningly terrible training captains in an otherwise excellent training department.

Now, talk to somebody who didn't have much background with small planes who got stuck with one of these terrible training captains for the majority of their training, and what will they say? "It was INTENSE."

Agreed
 
Boris Badenov said:
Yes, and yes. I'm not sure, but the implication of the above seems to be that FLX training is "a cluster", which is not the case. Austin is an absolute font of knowledge about 135 and flying in general, and the training is extremely "structured". It's just also kind of difficult. *shrug*. It's nothing that Joe Pilot shouldn't be able to handle, but it does pretty much require that you show up already knowing how to fly IFR to minimums in a /U piston single and that you show up, pay attention, and stay awake in class and spend significant amounts of your down time actually studying. Some people seem to have difficulty with one or the other of these things. When I was there the washout rate hovered around 50% generally.

AFAIK, UAL is the only guy here who has been through both FLX and AMF training...perhaps he could explain the differences for those who are...guessing?

BTW, here's another pepsi challenge. Having flown a fairly significant amount of single pilot freight and having spent a fairly significant amount of time blasting around in a jet, flying freight is A) More demanding and B) More fun. That's not a guess.
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Austin is by far the smartest man I've ever met regarding things aviation. He's not a jerk about it either. A LOT more "know-it-all" asshats here, that is for sure. Austin is a little rough around the edges until you get him to open up. Sail boating will get him talking for hours! :)

My thoughts between the two companies in general is that FLX feels uptight in training but is laid back when you get out on the line. AMF puts on a good show in training, but they are much more uptight. I also feel a lot more paranoid about things here, but some of that could be the extra cargo doors that you can't get at in flight and size of the airplane. Neither company is better than the other so far. Though, I am desperately wanting a 1900/metro upgrade to get closer to the pay I had at FLX. That's one thing I'll say for sure. AMF pay is horrid, but that's no secret before you come here. Anyone whining about it is an idiot.
 
jhugz said:
This is seriously not a troll post, even though I'm sure it will come off as one. However, from the Alaska guys I've seen try to hash it out in freight, they've been pretty tame with weather flying compared to the rest of us. I'm sure you guys can scud run with the best of them, but when it comes to weather flying, I'm not all that impressed.
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Unimpressed because they go around the storm rather than through it?
 
jtrain609 said:
\

I'm not sure why we do this in this industry, but "a complete cluster" is translated as "demanding" and "challenging," and "structured" is "too easy" to some folks. Me? I'm not very smart, and I like being told what I'm going to be checked on, but it's possible I'm just a horrible pilot.
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Couldn't agree with this more. Just went through a mickey mouse training program after being at a company with structure, and its night and day. It's great knowing that the company knows exactly what is expected of you, and exactly what it takes to achieve those results. The other side of the coin just adds stress, and can also be a safety issue when you get on the line depending on how bad it is.
 
UAL747400 said:
Okay, the letter from the chief counsels office regarding the word "assignment" in 135.267 was something the 121 guys couldn't grasp. 121, you'd never go WAY over duty, but under 135.267 and that word "assignment", technically you can. It's a slippery slope however. We've hashed this out before in another thread with no real result. The letter FLX presented to us is not online. Hmm.... :confused2:
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Heh...well, not really.

Let's break this down, because this is pretty dammed critical and a lot of places think that these rules are just a barrier that stands in the way of moving freight or people - it's my opinion that these rest and duty rules are some of the most critical laws standing to protect pilots against human-factors related errors:

My commentary will be in blue (consider it an homage to safety-engineer WacoFan ;-) )


Sec. 135.267 — Flight time limitations and rest requirements: Unscheduled one- and two-pilot crews.

(a) No certificate holder may assign any flight crewmember, and no flight crewmember may accept an assignment, for flight time as a member of a one- or two-pilot crew if that crewmember's total flight time in all commercial flying will exceed—
(1) 500 hours in any calendar quarter.
(2) 800 hours in any two consecutive calendar quarters.
(3) 1,400 hours in any calendar year.

This is all pretty straight forward, nothing of merit to see here other than that 1400hrs per year is a crap-load of flying and no one should be voluntarily subjected to the schedule it requires, but it is perfectly legal.

(b) Except as provided in paragraph (c) of this section, during any 24 consecutive hours the total flight time of the assigned flight when added to any other commercial flying by that flight crewmember may not exceed—
(So remember, we've got to go to paragraph (c) for the exception, and how it applies but the rest of the time, this stuff below is the critical stuff)
(1) 8 hours for a flight crew consisting of one pilot; or
(2) 10 hours for a flight crew consisting of two pilots qualified under this part for the operation being conducted.
(Pretty obvious, don't exceed 8 in 24 for single pilot, don't exceed 10 in 24 for 2 pilot crews - the FAA has a chief consul article out about what to do if you are both two pilot and single pilot - it's easy enough and follows those rules to the strictest interpretation.

(c) A flight crewmember's flight time may exceed the flight time limits of paragraph (b) of this section if the assigned flight time occurs during a regularly assigned duty period of no more than 14 hours and— (Alright, so if you have a regularly assigned duty period - which means that it starts and ends at the same time every day then you can intentionally go over your flight time limitations, but you'd better have a policy in place if you read through the interpretations, "regularly assigned duty periods" must start and end at the same time every day and be followed by 10 consecutive hours of rest - note that this is the only time in the regs where it talks about duty period - generally the FAA doesn't give a damn about duty period, they want to know about your rest periods.)
(1) If this duty period is immediately preceded by and followed by a required rest period of at least 10 consecutive hours of rest;
(2) If flight time is assigned during this period, that total flight time when added to any other commercial flying by the flight crewmember may not exceed—
(i) 8 hours for a flight crew consisting of one pilot; or
(ii) 10 hours for a flight crew consisting of two pilots; and
(3) If the combined duty and rest periods equal 24 hours. (So, no going over the duty time limitations in here it must be equal or under 14hrs)
(All this really means is that if you're a scheduled operator in Alaska using 135.267 rules, or you're an unscheduled operator that does a lot of trips during specific times of day, you don't have to worry about busting your 8-in-24 limitation under the previous paragraph. It means that if you have one day where all of your flights are in the evening and you fly 5 hrs, and the next morning all of your flights are in the morning and you fly 5 hrs, even though your rolling clock has ticked over 8-in-24hrs, you're still legal).


(d) Each assignment under paragraph (b) of this section must provide for at least 10 consecutive hours of rest during the 24-hour period that precedes the planned completion time of the assignment.
(This is where the idea that you have a "14hr duty day" comes from, normally, you must be given 10hrs of rest prior to a duty assignment, so operators say, "Well, that means I can use my pilots for up to 14hrs! That means there's a 14hr duty day! - no...it doesn't, it means you need 10hrs of rest prior to a duty assignment.)

So, if you "report for duty" at 10:00AM, that means that you had better have gotten off and "dutied off" before midnight the previous night. If work for 4hrs and during that you fly a 1hr out and back trip, and duty off at 2:00PM, that means the earliest you can duty on again is midnight that night. Clear as mud?

(e) When a flight crewmember has exceeded the daily flight time limitations in this section, because of circumstances beyond the control of the certificate holder or flight crewmember (such as adverse weather conditions), that flight crewmember must have a rest period before being assigned or accepting an assignment for flight time of at least—
(1) 11 consecutive hours of rest if the flight time limitation is exceeded by not more than 30 minutes;
(2) 12 consecutive hours of rest if the flight time limitation is exceeded by more than 30 minutes, but not more than 60 minutes; and
(3) 16 consecutive hours of rest if the flight time limitation is exceeded by more than 60 minutes.
(If something abnormal happens, you can go over, but you have to be given more rest - in the industry this is often referred to as "Compensatory Rest" - why? Hell if I know, the company is compensating me for anything, I worked extra and it's required, but whatever.)


(f) The certificate holder must provide each flight crewmember at least 13 rest periods of at least 24 consecutive hours each in each calendar quarter.
(13 rest periods of at least 24hrs are required per quarter - pretty straight forward)

[Doc. No. 23634, 50 FR 29320, July 18, 1985, as amended by Amdt. 135–33, 54 FR 39294, Sept. 25, 1989; Amdt. 135–60, 61 FR 2616, Jan. 26, 1996]
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Notice that nowhere in there does it say that you can exceed your duty time limitations. That just doesn't really exist in the eyes of the Feds because they're more concerned about your rest periods. If you happen to have a "regularly assigned duty period" you can bust some of your flight times in terms of 8 in 24, but you still cannot overfly 8 per day single pilot unless "circumstances beyond the control of the pilot" create that situation.

Now. What a lot of companies do is have you fly back on the empty leg, saying that you are part 91 for the last flight and you're A-OK to fly back. The way I've always heard it sold to me is that if you are flying back in furtherance of company business, well, it cannot be rest. If its optional and you could get a hotel if you needed to, its not rest but its not duty. Frankly, the whole concept is laughable. If you're flying you're not resting, so you're kind of screwing up the intent of the "24-hr lookback." I can't find any interpretations though, so YMMV. If you're fatigued though, the Bodlak interpretation says that it would be a violation of 91.13 and the certificate holder that assigned the duty may also be culpable. ( http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org.../interpretations/data/interps/1991/Bodlak.rtf )

Here's the pertinent quote:
An additional caution is that it is a violation of FAR 91.13 for a certificate holder or a flight crewmember to operate an aircraft in a careless or reckless manner so as to endanger the life or property of another. Lack of rest of the pilot is certainly a circumstance which could endanger others, and it is not necessary that the situation devolve into actual endangerment for there to be a violation of FAR 91.13. A certificate holder who uses a crewmember with knowledge of his or her lack of rest may be equally culpable along with the flight crewmember.
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Now, while I've got your attention:

The Mayors Interpretation ( http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org.../interpretations/data/interps/2009/Mayors.pdf ) covers 24-hr on call operations.

Basically, if you look at the definition of what rest period means in 135.273

Rest period means the period free of all responsibility for work or duty should the occasion arise.
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Then if you're sitting at home waiting for a call to go into work and fly - well, then you're on duty. That means that a whole plethora of companies doing parts flying are doing it "wrong." 24-hr on call is bogus nonsense, and is illegal, but the money is good enough for most pilots to either not care, be willfully ignorant, or just not care. Most POIs don't seem to push the issue provided it looks all good on paper.
 
The whole 91 home thing is not rest. If you fly from midnight to 0800, then pt 91 home until 1600, you get off at 1700, you now need your 10 hours, so earliest you can come back is 0300 the next day.
24 hour on call is illegal, like pat said.
We do on call for 12 hours at a time. Then if you get a call in the last hour of that, you can go fly for 2.whatever without busting duty. 91 home is not allowed, since just because there are not things in the back, doesn't mean fatigue doesn't get you and the 2+ million dollar airplane.
 
jtrain609 said:
Amflight's training, at least when I was there, is what you would call "structured" and "well thought out." Say what you want about the pay or how they treat you (and there's a lot to be said), I found Amflight's training and operational philosophy to mirror the part 121 carrier I'm at.

I'm not sure why we do this in this industry, but "a complete cluster" is translated as "demanding" and "challenging," and "structured" is "too easy" to some folks. Me? I'm not very smart, and I like being told what I'm going to be checked on, but it's possible I'm just a horrible pilot.
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I never said it wasn't structured. It is not as structured as some places I've been but there is a semblance of structure. I'm just saying it's not the fire hose, pull your hair out, 20 hour day studying training some make it out to be. They cover the topics you need to know in a fairly orderly fashion and you leave. Cooperate and graduate. I think some 121 guys might fall victim to the "I'm only flying a Navajo, wake me up when it's the checkride" and for that they are stupid.
 
mikecweb said:
I never said it wasn't structured. It is not as structured as some places I've been but there is a semblance of structure. I'm just saying it's not the fire hose, pull your hair out, 20 hour day studying training some make it out to be. They cover the topics you need to know in a fairly orderly fashion and you leave. Cooperate and graduate. I think some 121 guys might fall victim to the "I'm only flying a Navajo, wake me up when it's the checkride" and for that they are stupid.
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A cabin class piston twin is probably one of the harder airplanes to fly OEI. Give me turbines any day, way easier.
 
Excellent summary ppragman!

The whole "Part 91" leg home thing. Check out your OpSpecs, A001 paragraph (d).
 
ppragman said:
Heh...well, not really.
ppragman's post.
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Yes, I'm aware of all the 91 home shenanigans and how 24 hours on call is still duty. What I'm on, and what Flight Express focuses on, is the word assignment and what FLX considers an assignment as spelled out in the letter from the chief counsel interpreting that word. I'll find the thread where we hashed this out. Dugie8 and I dug through this until we were blue in the face. Going by that thread, it contradicts what FLX considers and assignment and "circumstances beyond the operators control" concerning that assignment. I'm also in agreement with what Dugie8 found, BUT, Austin has a letter from the chief counsel interpreting "assignment" the way FLX does. I haven't found it online anywhere however. Hence the "Hmmm...."

That being said, we never messed around with .267 as it would royally screw up the entire week.
 
UAL747400 said:
Yes, I'm aware of all the 91 home shenanigans and how 24 hours on call is still duty. What I'm on, and what Flight Express focuses on, is the word assignment and what FLX considers an assignment as spelled out in the letter from the chief counsel interpreting that word. I'll find the thread where we hashed this out. Dugie8 and I dug through this until we were blue in the face. Going by that thread, it contradicts what FLX considers and assignment and "circumstances beyond the operators control" concerning that assignment. BUT, Austin has a letter from the chief counsel interpreting "assignment" the way FLX does. I haven't found it online anywhere however. Hence the "Hmmm...."

That being said, we never messed around with .267 as it would royally screw up the entire week.
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Did you look here?

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org.../agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/
 
mikecweb said:
I never said it wasn't structured. It is not as structured as some places I've been but there is a semblance of structure. I'm just saying it's not the fire hose, pull your hair out, 20 hour day studying training some make it out to be. They cover the topics you need to know in a fairly orderly fashion and you leave. Cooperate and graduate. I think some 121 guys might fall victim to the "I'm only flying a Navajo, wake me up when it's the checkride" and for that they are stupid.
Click to expand...

It wasn't exactly a fire hose to me. I still had to study quite a bit being a freshmen freight pup. You came in a well seasoned transfer freight dawg. :)

Plenty of regional guys have gotten through training no problem. Some have struggled. Some freight pilots transfers have really struggled and washed out of training at the company also though.

I think it really depends on an individuals preperation and how serious they take the training. It would be wise to come into training with a bit of sim prep flying steam gauges to obtain optimal success if you are a regional pilot going over to 135 freight.

It would be the same if I were going over to flying glass and jets.
 
I've got it among all my old FLX stuff. Next time I'm home, I'll post it up. It's interesting as it is contradicting to everything else on there.
 
UAL747400 said:
Yes, I'm aware of all the 91 home shenanigans and how 24 hours on call is still duty. What I'm on, and what Flight Express focuses on, is the word assignment and what FLX considers an assignment as spelled out in the letter from the chief counsel interpreting that word. I'll find the thread where we hashed this out. Dugie8 and I dug through this until we were blue in the face. Going by that thread, it contradicts what FLX considers and assignment and "circumstances beyond the operators control" concerning that assignment. I'm also in agreement with what Dugie8 found, BUT, Austin has a letter from the chief counsel interpreting "assignment" the way FLX does. I haven't found it online anywhere however. Hence the "Hmmm...."

That being said, we never messed around with .267 as it would royally screw up the entire week.
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Don't take what I said in thy thread as nothing but rambling bi wasn't thinking in terms of assignment bi fly air ambo, thus on demand.

I will still contend that you cannot knowingly exceed duty thus the whole reason there is compensatory rest for exceeding flight time but boy duty time.
 
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