How many regional pilots can REALLY meet this requirement?

[Cal Goat]

Funny how so many 135 freight dogs end up moving onto the airline world and not vice versa. Most 135 freight companies, for better or worse, treat their pilots like poo and pay them accordingly. So we build experience and move onto the next opportunity. I flew for the big 135 freight co. and they explicitly stated on day 1 that they expected this job to be a stepping stone and that "any regional would hire us" when we left. The lifestyle was crappy, so I fulfilled their prophecy and moved on to a company that invests enough in their employees to encourage a positive culture.

So you can sit around and tell yourself how awesome it is to be a freight pilot flying NDBs in the fog with partial panel, but at the end of the day, your life is probably miserable. The only people that give a crap about how amazing freight pilots are are other freight pilots and flight instructors who sit in 172s all day.

 

[dasleben]

So you can sit around and tell yourself how awesome it is to be a freight pilot flying NDBs in the fog with partial panel, but at the end of the day, your life is probably miserable. The only people that give a crap about how amazing freight pilots are are other freight pilots and flight instructors who sit in 172s all day.

Best flying I've ever done, with the best QOL, was flying 135 in a piston twin. Conversely, the worst flying and the worst QOL was at the regional.

 

[Cal Goat]

Best flying I've ever done, with the best QOL, was flying 135 in a piston twin. Conversely, the worst flying and the worst QOL was at the regional.

I would never claim that any regional (or major, or corporate gig) is ideal or awesome, but I can tell you that my 135 freight experience was fairly unpleasant even though I got to be home every night. Probably why so many people from my old company continue to jump ship for a certain regional. Being at a company that treats you with even a small measure of dignity makes a hell of a difference. Your experience may vary.

 

[jynxyjoe]

I would never claim that any regional is ideal or awesome, but I can tell you that my 135 freight experience was fairly unpleasant even though I got to be home every night. Probably why so many people from my old company continue to jump ship for a certain regional. Being at a company that treats you with even a small measure of dignity makes a hell of a difference. Your experience may vary.

I'd echo my 134.5 was awful but I got the feeling they were about the worst out there, Colgan was an upgrade at first but still pitiful. Mesaba was downright pleasant.

 

[jhugz]

I'd go as far to venture that the Flight express 210 hero's wouldn't cut it in Alaska. They don't have the skills vis-a-vis 121 pilots who move to 135 freight.

This is seriously not a troll post, even though I'm sure it will come off as one. However, from the Alaska guys I've seen try to hash it out in freight, they've been pretty tame with weather flying compared to the rest of us. I'm sure you guys can scud run with the best of them, but when it comes to weather flying, I'm not all that impressed.

 

[jhugz]

Funny how so many 135 freight dogs end up moving onto the airline world and not vice versa. Most 135 freight companies, for better or worse, treat their pilots like poo and pay them accordingly. So we build experience and move onto the next opportunity. I flew for the big 135 freight co. and they explicitly stated on day 1 that they expected this job to be a stepping stone and that "any regional would hire us" when we left. The lifestyle was crappy, so I fulfilled their prophecy and moved on to a company that invests enough in their employees to encourage a positive culture.

So you can sit around and tell yourself how awesome it is to be a freight pilot flying NDBs in the fog with partial panel, but at the end of the day, your life is probably miserable. The only people that give a crap about how amazing freight pilots are are other freight pilots and flight instructors who sit in 172s all day.

I love this argument, you're working for a crappy company then. I make more then most jet captains doing the flying that I do. Sure my schedule is worse right now then at a regional, but I also could go back to the UPS schedule and make more then most turboprop captains. I have zero intentions of ever going to the regionals.

I love freight flying. I know it has laid a foundation down for whatever I do next. Where else do you get to fly an approach an approach into mexico (with a dme arc or teardrop) with terrain all around, at 250 knots, no AP, single pilot, flying the damn thing like you stole it?

One thing is for sure, when I'm done OOTSK'ing it, I will look back on these days and know for a fact, that this is the most amount of fun I'll ever have in professional aviation.

 

[jhugz]

Also to actually answer the question the OP posed, our company complies with all EOE stuff, but not many airline pilots every get the offer. You can probably guess why.

I firmly believe there is a lack of skill in the regional community for basic attitude/navigational flying. It's covered up by TAA, just like how 300 hour pilots can hack it in a regional cockpit. The airplane's advanced technology carries the crew along instead of the other way around.

 

[ppragman]

This is seriously not a troll post, even though I'm sure it will come off as one. However, from the Alaska guys I've seen try to hash it out in freight, they've been pretty tame with weather flying compared to the rest of us. I'm sure you guys can scud run with the best of them, but when it comes to weather flying, I'm not all that impressed.

You mean Tstorm flying? That makes sense if that's what you're hitting at, cuz' generally we don't have em up here cept' a few times a year. We have ice, crap runways, and turbulence to beat the band, but having done both, I'd say that I just stayed away from storms more than you guys did.

 

[jhugz]

You mean Tstorm flying? That makes sense if that's what you're hitting at, cuz' generally we don't have em up here cept' a few times a year. We have ice, crap runways, and turbulence to beat the band, but having done both, I'd say that I just stayed away from storms more than you guys did.

I'd say yes, that's the point I'm hitting at.

 

[ppragman]

I'd say yes, that's the point I'm hitting at.

Yeah, I didn't know anything about them when I came down south (except for the absolute basics and what I could read), and generally played it as cool as possible. Take a guy out of his comfort zone, and he'll obviously have to adjust accordingly.

 

[jhugz]

Yeah, I didn't know anything about them when I came down south (except for the absolute basics and what I could read), and generally played it as cool as possible. Take a guy out of his comfort zone, and he'll obviously have to adjust accordingly.

I think the same would go for a lower 48 freight pilot going up to the bush, if anyone can hack the transition, I'd imagine it would be them. That was the point I was trying to make.

 

[DStu]

.....it turns into a member measuring contest.

I think you are a "member"

 

[Tommay85]

I didn't read the entire thread, but I worked for them Jan-Aug this year. There were 5 airline guys in my class. They were all in their 30s, already had their TPIC time and had been furloughed. They didn't want to "start over". Some of the runs at FLX pay as much as a maxed out regional FO, so why would you? Anyways, only one made it through class. Where did the airline guys fail you ask?
-weather theory
-most AIM topics
-part 135 rest requirements. Non-stop arguments. They couldn't grasp that it's written and interpreted by FLXs POI differently than it is under 121.
3 made it to flight training
2 failed because they basically couldn't fly as a /U. Serious situational awareness issues.

I'm not knocking. Just pointing out what I saw 5 guys go through when going "backwards". 5 is hardly a sample.

BUT, FLX's training is also INTENSE. Ameriflight is a cake walk in comparison.

As someone else already pointed out, it's more of a comfort zone thing than anything.

 

[z987k]

I didn't read the entire thread, but I worked for them Jan-Aug this year. There were 5 airline guys in my class. They were all in their 30s, already had their TPIC time and had been furloughed. They didn't want to "start over". Some of the runs at FLX pay as much as a maxed out regional FO, so why would you? Anyways, only one made it through class. Where did the airline guys fail you ask?
-weather theory
-most AIM topics
-part 135 rest requirements. Non-stop arguements. They couldn't grasp that it's written and interpreted by FLXs POI differently than it is under 121.
3 made it to flight training
2 failed because they basically couldn't fly as a /U. Serious situational awareness issues.

I'm not knocking. Just pointing out what I saw 5 guys go through when going "backwards". 5 is hardly a sample.

BUT, FLX's training is also INTENSE. Ameriflight is a cake walk in comparison.

As someone else already pointed out, it's more of a comfort zone thing than anything.

POIs and FSDOs do not interpret ANYTHING! If you ever disagree with what one of them is saying, which is really common in 135 because they both think they can interpret things differently than what has been hashed out many times already, write to the chief counsel's office asap with the question, and have the correct thing in writing. It's not worth getting violated because the local FSDO is stocked with morons.

 

[Tommay85]

Okay, the letter from the chief counsels office regarding the word "assignment" in 135.267 was something the 121 guys couldn't grasp. 121, you'd never go WAY over duty, but under 135.267 and that word "assignment", technically you can. It's a slippery slope however. We've hashed this out before in another thread with no real result. The letter FLX presented to us is not online. Hmm....

 

[Tommay85]

Best flying I've ever done, with the best QOL, was flying 135 in a piston twin. Conversely, the worst flying and the worst QOL was at the regional.

Honestly I'm looking back at FLX and realize I had it pretty freaking good given the location and pay. I'm going to miss TKS too. Nobody gives a flip about 210/Baron flying, so...

I don't, however, miss relying solely on a good preflight look at the radar to sleeze my way down to OMA during convective activity.

 

[jrh]

I'm not knocking. Just pointing out what I saw 5 guys go through when going "backwards". 5 is hardly a sample.

This is interesting. And I know you're not saying this is definitive evidence, so I'm not trying to beat you up over it, but I wonder about more details. For instance, what is FLX's washout rate across all new hires? What were the backgrounds of the airline pilots prior to becoming airline pilots? Did they spend much time as say, a CFI in /U aircraft before going to the airlines, or did they get hired during the boom with 300 hours TT? How long had they worked in the airlines?

I wonder if washing out is more a function of a person's background than their current skills. What I mean is, just because they washed out of FLX training doesn't mean they were incompetent pilots or were unsafe flying an RJ. It might have more to do with a lack of familiarity with "small planes" or not being able to adapt quickly enough to FLX's training program after spending a lengthy period of time in the 121/RJ world.

BUT, FLX's training is also INTENSE. Ameriflight is a cake walk in comparison.

Again, not saying you're lying, but I've learned to take statements like this with a grain of salt. I've heard other pilots talk about how intense Amflight's training is. Who's right?

A lot of people say my company's training is intense, while I found it to be relatively mild, as evidenced by the fact that a hack like me could actually make it through. No, seriously, I mean it. Ask anyone who's flown with me. I'm not very good, and I know it. I just have a good attitude and keep plugging away until I get it.

I think one's perception of "intense" is largely shaped by their own flying background, coupled with the training captains they fly with. I came in to training with several thousand hours teaching in various piston powered flying machines, so it wasn't that big of a step to fly a piston twin here. I'm also very laid back, which certainly helped when I was paired with a couple head-spinningly terrible training captains in an otherwise excellent training department.

Now, talk to somebody who didn't have much background with small planes who got stuck with one of these terrible training captains for the majority of their training, and what will they say? "It was INTENSE."

 

[mikecweb]

No Ameriflight's training really was pretty easy.

 

[jtrain609]

No Ameriflight's training really was pretty easy.

Amflight's training, at least when I was there, is what you would call "structured" and "well thought out." Say what you want about the pay or how they treat you (and there's a lot to be said), I found Amflight's training and operational philosophy to mirror the part 121 carrier I'm at.

I'm not sure why we do this in this industry, but "a complete cluster" is translated as "demanding" and "challenging," and "structured" is "too easy" to some folks. Me? I'm not very smart, and I like being told what I'm going to be checked on, but it's possible I'm just a horrible pilot.

 

[Boris Badenov]

Me? I'm not very smart, and I like being told what I'm going to be checked on, but it's possible I'm just a horrible pilot.

Yes, and yes. I'm not sure, but the implication of the above seems to be that FLX training is "a cluster", which is not the case. Austin is an absolute font of knowledge about 135 and flying in general, and the training is extremely "structured". It's just also kind of difficult. *shrug*. It's nothing that Joe Pilot shouldn't be able to handle, but it does pretty much require that you show up already knowing how to fly IFR to minimums in a /U piston single and that you show up, pay attention, and stay awake in class and spend significant amounts of your down time actually studying. Some people seem to have difficulty with one or the other of these things. When I was there the washout rate hovered around 50% generally.

AFAIK, UAL is the only guy here who has been through both FLX and AMF training...perhaps he could explain the differences for those who are...guessing?

BTW, here's another pepsi challenge. Having flown a fairly significant amount of single pilot freight and having spent a fairly significant amount of time blasting around in a jet, flying freight is A) More demanding and B) More fun. That's not a guess.