How many fly as a "secondary" career?

You get what you pay for...at SP that isn't a whole lot.
Click to expand...

Doug could walk circles around you in aviation and teaching. I mean he only has a few thousand hours of teaching and over 20 years of being a cfi. Oh and hes a A&P IA. So if he aint giving a whole lot for his time than you aint giving anything.

I don't think anyone is arguing with you on CFIing. As CFIing is a harmless thing, you get paid very little, you get paid a lot, some just do it for free. The other guys are talking about pro flying as a hobby. There are definitely people out there that have gotten into this business willing to work poverty wages because they know that they can suppor themselves with a second income. I don't understand how you don't understand that this type of mentality is bad for the industry.
Click to expand...

That mentality is bad and is harmful I'm not arguing that. My point was that just because someone has another profession outside of flying that they are successful at doesn't mean they should leave aviation. In my previous example of the JetBlue pilot even though he thinks of his flying job as second income I can assure you that he still is very serious about it. It just happens to fall second on his list of priorities. My only point I was trying to make is that flying as a second source of income isnt evil or bad as long as that person still takes it seriously. I have a regular full time job and will be instructing in both airplanes and gliders this coming summer and I will treat my instructing as a serious side business. But it will just be a side business and not my main job. Some people on here seem to think that if flying isnt my main job I have no business making money doing it at all because they feel I am stealing from them somehow.
 
Socal321 said:
I don't think anyone is arguing with you on CFIing. As CFIing is a harmless thing, you get paid very little, you get paid a lot, some just do it for free. The other guys are talking about pro flying as a hobby. There are definitely people out there that have gotten into this business willing to work poverty wages because they know that they can suppor themselves with a second income. I don't understand how you don't understand that this type of mentality is bad for the industry.
Click to expand...

I am. How are CFI's suppose to show their employers that they are worth more then 10k a year when there are plenty of people out there willing to do our job for free, because it's their hobby.
 
jhugz said:
I am. How are CFI's suppose to show their employers that they are worth more then 10k a year when there are plenty of people out there willing to do our job for free, because it's their hobby.
Click to expand...

I don't think they can, it's just the nature of CFIing. And really overall it's not a highly paid job unless you work at special areas where rich people are only willing to pay the most experienced people.
 
I am. How are CFI's suppose to show their employers that they are worth more then 10k a year when there are plenty of people out there willing to do our job for free, because it's their hobby.
Click to expand...

The part time flight instructors I know dont do it for free. Alot of times they are the most experiences guys on the field since they are looking to move on and because of this tend to charge the most. Even at SkyPark where 20-25 is the norm per hour going all to the flight instructor 10k is very easily to make for the part timers. So if your working full time all year doing it than either your getting paid much less than the guys at skypark or your in a area that is really slow.

I don't think they can, it's just the nature of CFIing. And really overall it's not a highly paid job unless you work at special areas where rich people are only willing to pay the most experienced people.
Click to expand...

This goes to my above point. Generally the most experienced instructors on the field are the part timers who have been instructing forever as a part time job. They generally have established themselves into a niche such as tailwheel, high performance, glass etc and can charge more for it due to there mass amount of experience teaching it. So really I think its the time building CFIs who bring down the wages in the instructing side of aviation.
 
Inverted25 said:
Doug could walk circles around you in aviation and teaching. I mean he only has a few thousand hours of teaching and over 20 years of being a cfi. Oh and hes a A&P IA. So if he aint giving a whole lot for his time than you aint giving anything.
Click to expand...

Relax champ and take a deep breath. Doug is a awesome instructor, one of the only ones there that has a clue. Overall though you get what you pay for at that place. Take for example the equipment or JS or the MX.
 
Inverted25 said:
The part time flight instructors I know dont do it for free. Alot of times they are the most experiences guys on the field since they are looking to move on and because of this tend to charge the most. Even at SkyPark where 20-25 is the norm per hour going all to the flight instructor 10k is very easily to make for the part timers. So if your working full time all year doing it than either your getting paid much less than the guys at skypark or your in a area that is really slow.

Ask Doug how much he grosses a year as an instructor...I guarantee you he isn't making over 20k a year. Most of his revenue comes in from his A&P I'm sure.

This goes to my above point. Generally the most experienced instructors on the field are the part timers who have been instructing forever as a part time job. They generally have established themselves into a niche such as tailwheel, high performance, glass etc and can charge more for it due to there mass amount of experience teaching it. So really I think its the time building CFIs who bring down the wages in the instructing side of aviation.

Whether it be time builders or part timers doing this for fun the people bringing down the industry at this level still view it as a hobby instead of a profession.
Click to expand...
 
JS is gone. Hes over at CAK. Doug makes over 20k. He billed around 800 last year which was down from just over 1000 in 2008. He charged 25 for primary and 28 for everything else. So even at 25 for all 800 brought in 20,000 excatly. So hes right around there. But yes alot of his income comes from his A&P business. They are talking bout everyone charging 30 this year for everything.

The time builders that I'm talking about brining down the wages are the professionals trying to move to the next step. I dont think they view as a hobby more like a stepping stone. Its is that stepping stone mentality that hurts wages. Thats why it has forced the career cfis to specilaze in something that the time builders can't get into such as tailwheel and aerobatics because otherwise the timebuilders will just bring down the wages by flooded the market.
 
Inverted25 said:
JS is gone. Hes over at CAK. Doug makes over 20k. He billed around 800 last year which was down from just over 1000 in 2008. He charged 25 for primary and 28 for everything else. So even at 25 for all 800 brought in 20,000 excatly. So hes right around there. But yes alot of his income comes from his A&P business. They are talking bout everyone charging 30 this year for everything.

The time builders that I'm talking about brining down the wages are the professionals trying to move to the next step. I dont think they view as a hobby more like a stepping stone. Its is that stepping stone mentality that hurts wages. Thats why it has forced the career cfis to specilaze in something that the time builders can't get into such as tailwheel and aerobatics because otherwise the timebuilders will just bring down the wages by flooded the market.
Click to expand...

Sorry, anyone who is charging 25 an hour as a cfi is bringing down the market.
 
How though? I understand that alot of schools charge like 50 to 60. But only like 25 to 30 of that goes to the instructor. So whats the difference of that instructor leaving and just charging say 30 himself. Hes still getting the same he got at the school. Yes the student now gets accustmed to paying less but thats only because the independent instructor has no overhead to worry about like a school does.
 
When i was contracting i charged 40 for primary and 50 for instrument. Whats a $15 difference you ask? well at 1000 hours a year that 15 grand, and for someone who depends on that as their sole source of income, thats a lot.

Even when i as instructing at a field with 2 other CFI's, they raised their rates to match mine. Some might call it price fixing, but they were both doing it as a hobby, and at least they had the decency to not under cut me. They understood this was my living and i needed it.

Thats one of the main reasons ill never work for a flight school. I can do just as well independently and keep all my money.
 
If thats the going rate that works. But I can say from the two airports I fly out of mostly skypark and ashland. Skypark instructors charge between 20 and 30 and ashland instructors all charge 28 and 34 a hour. So in this area that seems to be around the norm.
 
So what is "market price" for a CFI hourly these days? How is that value attained? Who's to say who is over/undercharging? Kind of reminds me of going to a seafood restaurant and ordering the lobster, where the price always says "market".
 
WacoFan said:
Maybe you guys are looking through the wrong prism. The guy with a solid second income, who has his JetBlue or other airline job may really be less averse to walking out in a strike, or for voting for a substandard contract. If they are successful at all in another walk of life then they must have understood business at some point, and certainly how to value their time. A substandard contract or massive cuts would potentially lead this person to say "hmm...this isn't worth the 90 hours of pay I'm getting...I'll focus on my other gig".
Click to expand...


Maybe you're right. I honestly admit I had not considered that aspect.

The problem, however, is that a good deal of folks with dual careers or financial aspects of their lives don't do it that way.

They have much greater tolerances for the pain inflicted than those who have "all their eggs" in the hypothetical basket.

One could argue that divided interest is lessened interest, thereby negating any drive to demand better compensation and conditions.
 
Firebird2XC said:
One could argue that divided interest is lessened interest, thereby negating any drive to demand better compensation and conditions.
Click to expand...

This could go either way, a typical scab mentality is making excuses because they had no other choice but to cross the line for lack of money. Those that don't 100% rely on the job could theoretically stay on strike for much longer and help out their brothers & sisters during the hard times.

No one is saying they plan on working for free or accepting sub-standard wages here. That isn't the question or topic.

The act of working two professions at at time or pursuing ancillary income outside of one's career is a worthy goal. The argument that just because someone is comfortable and doesn't 'need' said job (how can you even define that need anyway) is asinine. I would bet there are very very few actual 'hobby' pilots out there. I have only met one who might fit the description who was a classically trained pianist and had plenty of money. He is a great Captain and an asset to aviation. What right does anyone have to say he should quit?
 
I really can't see how having dual careers is negative to the aviation community. Those with dual careers still had to go through the same motions to become a FO, or a Captain, etc. I see the situation as almost being two-fold. Those who pursue only an aviation career and are faced with months upon months of unemployment decide to go back to the community college and get a degree or certificate. Then they get a "new" job or a "secondary" job. Are they just taking up space that some other guy could have had? I really don't see the big issue. My passion lies within aviation, but not all of us are the same. I chose to get my Respiratory Therapy degree because it's stable, rewarding, provides a good income, and allows a lot of flexibility in scheduling. I want to get more ratings because I want to be an asset to the aviation community, but if by some chance my health turns for the worse and I can no longer get a medical, guess what? I've got another profession that I am equally passionate about. Sure, I don't have to fly, but I want to fly. The want part of the last sentence implies that I have an equal amount of passion as the nay sayers, but with an educational background that doesn't involve aviation alone. Also, it's my understanding that major airlines require their pilots to have a 4 year degree....in any field of study they want. Please explain the difference because I'm having a real hard time understanding the negative aspect of having dual careers.
 
jhugz said:
No, your logic is flawed. Aviation is my career, not my hobby. As soon as you cross into the professional side of aviation whether that be 91,121,135, Flight Instruction, Towing Gliders, Aerial Photography you should have the same mindset. It is no longer a hobby like most of these "people" take it, it is a profession. When you have someone in a profession that views it like a hobby they will have no will to better work rules, pay, QoL, etc. Charlie is 100% right, they are dead weight and I don't want to drag them along for the ride.
Click to expand...

whatever....The great thing about this country is YOU dont get to decide these types of things for others. If someone wants to earn their ratings and fly part time, then good for them. This entitlement, elitist bull crap gets old after a while.
 
MikeD said:
So what is "market price" for a CFI hourly these days? How is that value attained? Who's to say who is over/undercharging? Kind of reminds me of going to a seafood restaurant and ordering the lobster, where the price always says "market".
Click to expand...

I was charging 40 primary/50 instrument/comm/60 multi freelance. I was only doing it part time but it was really helpful w/ the bills.
 
tjvpa28 said:
I think his point is that a captain who is there just for the heck of it takes that seat away from an FO who NEEDS that seat to make a better living. If I were an FO with a family to support it would irk me to sit next to a captain who didn't need to be there too.
Click to expand...

So the captain that doesn't need the job should step down just so that you can get his seat? That's quite a sense of entitlement don't you think? Did anyone step down just so that captain could get his seat? Probably not. And if not, why the 'eff should he have to step down just to help you? So many people seem to feel they're owed something. No one owes you anything. Ever. If you want that captains seat, get yourself there on your own merits just like he did.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top