How many fly as a "secondary" career?

bike21 said:
And why not? As long as someone earns a respectable wage, doesn't buy said job and is professional through and through, there are certain sectors within this industry that could easily be 'side' jobs. I would argue that they would be less burned out and enjoy it more.

If I play my cards right, even my 121 gig will become my 'side' job :) Lawd knows it isn't worth much else these days.
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A '121 gig' should be a career in itself and require no 'side job'.

If you're doing that well with things elsewhere, stop treating your 121 JOB as a HOBBY and QUIT.

An attitude like that just drags the rest of us down.
 
Firebird2XC said:
A '121 gig' should be a career in itself and require no 'side job'.

If you're doing that well with things elsewhere, stop treating your 121 JOB as a HOBBY and QUIT.

An attitude like that just drags the rest of us down.
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Sorry don't follow you here. I am quite sure we share the same goals in improving this profession, but taking it too seriously will result in nothing more than lots of stress and a heart attack.

I certainly agree that it is a career, but it is a means to an end like any other job. Work to live and not the other way around. If someone can enjoy the supposed 'benefits' of the career, be professional, do all the 'right' things and work little as possible, whose business is it to tell them otherwise?

Anyone who puts all their eggs in one basket is insane if you ask me. Nothing wrong with a little diversification.
 
Firebird2XC said:
A '121 gig' should be a career in itself and require no 'side job'.

If you're doing that well with things elsewhere, stop treating your 121 JOB as a HOBBY and QUIT.

An attitude like that just drags the rest of us down.
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Gotta disagree with you here.

I've known people in 121 that, have small businesses like coffee shops (2 different guys, actually), construction, aircraft sales -- any number of things.

There are many different reasons, too. Years of reserve -- what else can can you do to stay off the streets? Economic necessity -- this industry isn't what it was in the last 80s or early 90s. Some people have the talent. Some lineholders might get 15+ days off per month and, again, need something to keep from getting bored.

So, what about the folks who join the Guard or Reserves? That's another career, too.

As I see it, if they go to work and do their job well, so what? It's not like they have another job and can buying GV type so they can play corporate pilot three times a year (@$150/day) and cheating a full-time contract pilot out of the $1000/day gig.
 
deadstick said:
Gotta disagree with you here.

I've known people in 121 that, have small businesses like coffee shops (2 different guys, actually), construction, aircraft sales -- any number of things.

There are many different reasons, too. Years of reserve -- what else can can you do to stay off the streets? Economic necessity -- this industry isn't what it was in the last 80s or early 90s. Some people have the talent. Some lineholders might get 15+ days off per month and, again, need something to keep from getting bored.

So, what about the folks who join the Guard or Reserves? That's another career, too.

As I see it, if they go to work and do their job well, so what? It's not like they have another job and can buying GV type so they can play corporate pilot three times a year (@$150/day) and cheating a full-time contract pilot out of the $1000/day gig.
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That's not what I'm saying. Working two jobs to make ends meet is one thing- I don't advocate anybody starving for this or any job.

... but I did once fly with a Captain who claimed to make considerably more money with the business he owned. He had little that was positive to say about the flying job, but he kept it around as a hobby because he enjoyed it as a hobby. He could have given a rip about it otherwise.

In a seniority based system that depends on people actively working to make it livable, just being along for the ride seems rude to me.

So yeah. If you're just taking up space in an industry where people go to earn their livelihoods because you can and it amuses you, it's insulting to the rest of the world. Go play with your business or your supposed 'real' job.

Go find a hobby that isn't dragging down my ability to advance my career because I'm forced to carry your dead weight.
 
In the silicon valley area, it is very common in both the flying and sailing communities to see large numbers of part time instructors whose primary occupations are or were in some other industry (business, law, engineering, etc.). They work nights and weekends as time allows, and when the economics look right, some retire early from their main jobs to turn flight instruction into a full time job. In my experience these guys have been great instructors.

One interesting guy I know spends half his time engineering and half his time in a 135 flying gig. He got started doing that while flying feeder freight, as flying 2 hours a day gave him plenty of time to set up his engineering business.
 
Your logic is flawed. Thinking that I should stop flight instructing as a side job just because I dont need it to pay the bills is ridicolous. I would argue that some of the best flight instructors I have ever ment are guys who do it as a side job. They have no intent of moving on and do it because they enjoy it. I would take that guy over the guy just trying to build hours any day of the week. We have a guy where I fly that is a metro ER nurse three days a week and has a large customer base for his flight instruction busniess the other 4 days a week. He doesnt need the money from flying but he enjoys it and he is very good at it. No reason he should stop doing that just because it upsets you. Theres a JetBlue captain who is friends with my uncle and he owns a large construction business in sullivan ohio and that is his main job and he consideres his flying job a secondary income. What is so wrong with that? To me its genius. He is very well off.
 
Inverted25 said:
Your logic is flawed. Thinking that I should stop flight instructing as a side job just because I dont need it to pay the bills is ridicolous. I would argue that some of the best flight instructors I have ever ment are guys who do it as a side job. They have no intent of moving on and do it because they enjoy it. I would take that guy over the guy just trying to build hours any day of the week. We have a guy where I fly that is a metro ER nurse three days a week and has a large customer base for his flight instruction busniess the other 4 days a week. He doesnt need the money from flying but he enjoys it and he is very good at it. No reason he should stop doing that just because it upsets you. Theres a JetBlue captain who is friends with my uncle and he owns a large construction business in sullivan ohio and that is his main job and he consideres his flying job a secondary income. What is so wrong with that? To me its genius. He is very well off.
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No, your logic is flawed. Aviation is my career, not my hobby. As soon as you cross into the professional side of aviation whether that be 91,121,135, Flight Instruction, Towing Gliders, Aerial Photography you should have the same mindset. It is no longer a hobby like most of these "people" take it, it is a profession. When you have someone in a profession that views it like a hobby they will have no will to better work rules, pay, QoL, etc. Charlie is 100% right, they are dead weight and I don't want to drag them along for the ride.
 
But you see even though it is a side job they are still proffesionals about it. They dont charge anyless than the going rate in the area and usually have a ton more experience than most the hour builders? So how are they dragging down the industry?
 
Inverted25 said:
But you see even though it is a side job they are still proffesionals about it. They dont charge anyless than the going rate in the area and usually have a ton more experience than most the hour builders? So how are they dragging down the industry?
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I would hardly say that the 20-25 dollars an hour they get from Skypark is hardly the going rate in the area. Compare it to Lorain or some of the Cleveland flight schools or CAK for that matter.
 
I think his point is that a captain who is there just for the heck of it takes that seat away from an FO who NEEDS that seat to make a better living. If I were an FO with a family to support it would irk me to sit next to a captain who didn't need to be there too.
 
jhugz said:
No, your logic is flawed. Aviation is my career, not my hobby. As soon as you cross into the professional side of aviation whether that be 91,121,135, Flight Instruction, Towing Gliders, Aerial Photography you should have the same mindset. It is no longer a hobby like most of these "people" take it, it is a profession. When you have someone in a profession that views it like a hobby they will have no will to better work rules, pay, QoL, etc. Charlie is 100% right, they are dead weight and I don't want to drag them along for the ride.
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+1

If you want a hobby, go play golf, or put around the pattern. Dont mess with my paycheck.

What do you think would happen if a new DPE came into town and started giving free check rides because he enjoyed it?
 
I still disagree. If you look at what they get at skypark versus what the instructors themselves get at cle and cak(not what the school charges) its better. A buddy of mine instructs at burke and the school he teaches for charges 55 a hour to the students but pays him 20-25 depending on what type of instruction he is doing. So its on the same token. Under this logic guys like donald trump need to step aside because they dont need the money any longer. Thats dumb. Thats like punishing the successful person. As long as the person doing it for a hobby provides the same level of instruction as the so called professional there is nothing wrong with it. Just because you dont like the fact its taking busniess from you doesnt make it wrong. If your so much better at your job than this part timer than you should be able to get the business over him bottom line. Theres no moral argument in this. Its just business. If i can do it cheaper than you so what. Its how walmart has taken over the retail world.
 
The part-time instructors I am aware of in my area charge just as much or more than the full-time time building guys. They are generally quite happy where they are and not hungry to get to the next rung in aviation. I think as busy, successful professionals they value their time and don't have motivation to charge below market value.
 
The part-time instructors I am aware of in my area charge just as much or more than the full-time time building guys. They are generally quite happy where they are and not hungry to get to the next rung in aviation. I think as busy, successful professionals they value their time and don't have motivation to charge below market value.
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:yeahthat:


I havent ment a part timer yet who lacked motivation. If they had no motivation they wouldnt do it period. They do it because they love to fly not because they have to to pay the bills and to move on. Because of this every part timer I have ment seems to be the better teacher. I dont think you have to worry about them doing it for free either because trust me they have better things to do with their time if they aren't being paid. To me it seems the time builders are the one who are bringing down the industry jumping on the pay for twin programs and doing stuff free just to pad the logbook.
 
Maybe you guys are looking through the wrong prism. The guy with a solid second income, who has his JetBlue or other airline job may really be less averse to walking out in a strike, or for voting for a substandard contract. If they are successful at all in another walk of life then they must have understood business at some point, and certainly how to value their time. A substandard contract or massive cuts would potentially lead this person to say "hmm...this isn't worth the 90 hours of pay I'm getting...I'll focus on my other gig".
 
tjvpa28 said:
I think his point is that a captain who is there just for the heck of it takes that seat away from an FO who NEEDS that seat to make a better living. If I were an FO with a family to support it would irk me to sit next to a captain who didn't need to be there too.
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I know of a captain at a regional who is very senior in base. He gets what he wants schedule wise. Being a captain is his "secondary income." His primary job you ask? He's a lawyer....
 
Inverted25 said:
I still disagree. If you look at what they get at skypark versus what the instructors themselves get at cle and cak(not what the school charges) its better. A buddy of mine instructs at burke and the school he teaches for charges 55 a hour to the students but pays him 20-25 depending on what type of instruction he is doing. So its on the same token. Under this logic guys like donald trump need to step aside because they dont need the money any longer. Thats dumb. Thats like punishing the successful person. As long as the person doing it for a hobby provides the same level of instruction as the so called professional there is nothing wrong with it. Just because you dont like the fact its taking busniess from you doesnt make it wrong. If your so much better at your job than this part timer than you should be able to get the business over him bottom line. Theres no moral argument in this. Its just business. If i can do it cheaper than you so what. Its how walmart has taken over the retail world.
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I don't think anyone is arguing with you on CFIing. As CFIing is a harmless thing, you get paid very little, you get paid a lot, some just do it for free. The other guys are talking about pro flying as a hobby. There are definitely people out there that have gotten into this business willing to work poverty wages because they know that they can suppor themselves with a second income. I don't understand how you don't understand that this type of mentality is bad for the industry.
 
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