How low will the regionals go on time requirements?

Mattio said:
It seems like every day another regional is lowering its' minimums. I was wondering if anybody here has the inside scoop on what we can expect from the regionals in the near future? Do you think that regionals like American Eagle and Express Jet will lower their multi requirement to 50 hours? Also, do you think that any regional will ever go lower than the 50 hours of multi?
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We had the VP of flight operations in our class yesterday mentioning how some other regionals are lowering their minimums to practically nothing. He just shook his head(as did everyone else) and mentioned how it ain't gonna happen here.

Buuuuut, just to let you know, I know a guy that was flying around in a turboprop in Socal that flew with another gal who swore to Osama himself that she was hired with 880 TT. And no, she wasn't part of any program.
 
What do you guys think about freight operators who hire pilots who have relatively little multi time? Sure they have 1200 hours + and meet 135 IFR mins, but many places will hire with a wet multi ticket. Then, if you pass training, you will be flying high performance twins as the captain at night in crap weather - nobody else in the cockpit to help out as you'd find in the 121 world.

Good policy, bad policy, or indifferent?
 
Republic and Skywest won't be joining the low mins parade until FOs from other regionals stop jumping ship and going over there. One of the reasons we're getting lower and lower is that our staff keeps disappearing. Some FOs go to places like Netjets, a few freight carriers or a corporate gig. A LOT go to other regionals like Skywest or Republic. One of my best friends jumped from Mesa to Skywest because a) Mesa was treating him poorly and b) it was an easier commute from LAS. Republic is offering $2500 once you pass IOE, which has a lot of guys here thinking about moving that direction. If I were still within my first 6 months and didn't mind commuting, I'd probably have my app in over there myself. As it is, if I can stick it out for about another year and a half, I'll probably upgrade here. I don't wanna start at the bottom of another seniority list, but some other people don't mind as long as the QOL issues are a step up.
 
kellwolf said:
Republic and Skywest won't be joining the low mins parade until FOs from other regionals stop jumping ship and going over there. One of the reasons we're getting lower and lower is that our staff keeps disappearing. Some FOs go to places like Netjets, a few freight carriers or a corporate gig. A LOT go to other regionals like Skywest or Republic. One of my best friends jumped from Mesa to Skywest because a) Mesa was treating him poorly and b) it was an easier commute from LAS. Republic is offering $2500 once you pass IOE, which has a lot of guys here thinking about moving that direction. If I were still within my first 6 months and didn't mind commuting, I'd probably have my app in over there myself. As it is, if I can stick it out for about another year and a half, I'll probably upgrade here. I don't wanna start at the bottom of another seniority list, but some other people don't mind as long as the QOL issues are a step up.
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I even heard about a PCL FO looking to jump to Midwest :rolleyes:
 
ChinookDriver said:
What do you guys think about freight operators who hire pilots who have relatively little multi time? Sure they have 1200 hours + and meet 135 IFR mins, but many places will hire with a wet multi ticket. Then, if you pass training, you will be flying high performance twins as the captain at night in crap weather - nobody else in the cockpit to help out as you'd find in the 121 world.

Good policy, bad policy, or indifferent?
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Companies don't tend to care as much because we're only carrying cargo....not people.
 
One thing that has always baffled me was a lateral career move. For example, when a person jumps from one regional to another. Its pointless, IMO. You give up your seniority, have to re-interview, go through another ground school and OE, sit reserve, take a pay cut (assuming you're in you second or third year), ect.

I hear of second and third year FOs leaving Mesa for SKYW or Republic. Just the other day was speaking with a close friend who has 1300/40 who wants to go to Mesa for a year then over to ExpressJet. Doesnt make any sense to me. Lateral career movements dont move you any closer to the goal of a major.

Stick it out, get your PIC time, and get the hell out.
 
meritflyer said:
One thing that has always baffled me was a lateral career move. For example, when a person jumps from one regional to another. Its pointless, IMO. You give up your seniority, have to re-interview, go through another ground school and OE, sit reserve, take a pay cut (assuming you're in you second or third year), ect.

I hear of second and third year FOs leaving Mesa for SKYW or Republic. Just the other day was speaking with a close friend who has 1300/40 who wants to go to Mesa for a year then over to ExpressJet. Doesnt make any sense to me. Lateral career movements dont move you any closer to the goal of a major.

Stick it out, get your PIC time, and get the hell out.
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That seems logical, but that may be the difference between 3-4 years and 7-8. Theres a big difference. The problem is you may not be able to get the hell out these days, as was the case when 9/11 hit and everyone was stuck in their current positions or furloughed.

personal example:

When I was going thru my ratings, I met a guy who flew for eagle. he had been there for 2 years as an FO. I got all my ratings, instructed, got hired, upgraded, and its been another year since then. He's still an FO at eagle. And thats not by choice. So it's pretty easy to see why some of these guys would want to jump ship.
 
Agreed that there are some additional factors. I was thinking about guys who are leaving Mesa for Republic. Why would you invest two years, be months away from upgrade, and jump ship to another regional only to become a FO. Eagle would suck since the upgrade is something like 7 years. But when you're stitting at a regional like Mesa, PCL, Great Lakes, or Colgan and leave for a "better" company like SKYW or Republic, I really cant understand that. I say get your time and get out.
 
Because Mesa's contract has some serious QOL issues. If I were away from home a ton, doing highspeeds left and right to the point where I couldn't think and treated like a red headed step child by my company ALL while commuting, I'd be looking for another place to work. In addition, a lot of guys (Ready2Fly comes to mind) might not be looking at a regional as a stepping stone, but as a place to spend their career. If that's the case, why not go to a better regional? Some guys do it purely for the commute. What good is holding 12-14 days off if you're losing 4-6 days commuting to and from work, especially if there's an airline hiring that you could commute to with a lot less hassle. Most of the guys that left here for Skywest were DTW based, but they lived in UT (lots of UVSC guys) or the west coast. Instead of paying for a hotel room and losing several days off a month, now they can sleep in their own bed and commute in the morning before their flight.
 
I used to have strong feelings about flight time relating to experience and abilities. But yesterday after the Colgan interview, a LOT of people with flight times over 800TT did not do well at all on the sim ride. The sim was easy. Fly a simple DP, do a hold, shoot an ILS. An airplane is an airplane, when you fly the thing like its meant to be flown it flies well. Guys with 800 hours were putting the thing into 25deg nose down dives. It put a big question mark in my book on the flight time totals argument. I think its the job of the Regionals to sufficiently evaluate the skill level as well as the knowledge of their applicants. I think having to fly a profile in a full motion sim immediately shows you how well someone's ability to work under pressure (in a new aircraft) and handle simple tasks, like maintaining altitude, heading and shooting an approach. I'm not throwing poo or starting a flame thing here, but when I was instructing at ATP I had guys with well over 1000TT and over 300 multi that could not even hold altitude in a Seminole and flew like they've never been on an ILS approach before. That is just unacceptable for a Commercial pilot.

I agree with flight time comes experience to a certain extent. You get to develop as a pilot, you get to experience weather and various situations. But the bottom line is, if you can't fly an airplane at 300TT, you can't fly an airplane at a 1000TT. Thats my feeling on it. The bottom line here I think is that as long as these companies are thoroughly evaluating the knowledge - experience - and skill level of new pilots, then it doesn't matter what their logbook totals are.
 
Airdale said:
I used to have strong feelings about flight time relating to experience and abilities. But yesterday after the Colgan interview, a LOT of people with flight times over 800TT did not do well at all on the sim ride. The sim was easy. Fly a simple DP, do a hold, shoot an ILS. An airplane is an airplane, when you fly the thing like its meant to be flown it flies well. Guys with 800 hours were putting the thing into 25deg nose down dives. It put a big question mark in my book on the flight time totals argument. I think its the job of the Regionals to sufficiently evaluate the skill level as well as the knowledge of their applicants. I think having to fly a profile in a full motion sim immediately shows you how well someone's ability to work under pressure (in a new aircraft) and handle simple tasks, like maintaining altitude, heading and shooting an approach. I'm not throwing poo or starting a flame thing here, but when I was instructing at ATP I had guys with well over 1000TT and over 300 multi that could not even hold altitude in a Seminole and flew like they've never been on an ILS approach before.

I agree with flight time comes experience to a certain extent. You get to develop as a pilot, you get to experience weather and various situations. But the bottom line is, if you can't fly an airplane at 300TT, you can't fly an airplane at a 1000TT. Thats my feeling on it. The bottom line here I think is that as long as these companies are thoroughly evaluating the knowledge - experience - and skill level of new pilots, then it doesn't matter what their logbook totals are.
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I strongly disagree. At 300 hours I was literally half the pilot I am today. I fly much better from a procedural standpoint and have a little more insight to my personal abilitites. A 1000 hour pilot who cant fly a DP out of a SIM tells me jack crap. Sims dont tell much about one's decision making ability and skill level.

So, your basically telling me that when I became a newly minted commercial pilot and my flying was prestine, I should've been able to go fly for a 121 op because my knowledge base and flying skills were sharp?
If thats your attitude, screw getting your CFI. Lets start taking people right out of their commercial certificates.

Regionals arent thinking low time pilots are just as good as high time. That is a careless statement. They're thinking who can we get to sit in this right seat while we pay them subpar wages and treat them like crap.

Disappointing Airdale.
 
meritflyer said:
I strongly disagree. At 300 hours I was literally half the pilot I am today. I fly much better from a procedural standpoint and have a little more insight to my personal abilitites. A 1000 hour pilot who cant fly a DP out of a SIM tells me jack crap. Sims dont tell much about one's decision making ability and skill level.

So, your basically telling me that when I became a newly minted commercial pilot and my flying was prestine, I should've been able to go fly for a 121 op because my knowledge base and flying skills were sharp?
If thats your attitude, screw getting your CFI. Lets start taking people right out of their commercial certificates.

Regionals arent thinking low time pilots are just as good as high time. That is a careless statement. They're thinking who can we get to sit in this right seat while we pay them subpar wages and treat them like crap.

Disappointing Airdale.
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With more time, yes your skills improve. I'm not saying that it doesn't. Lets talk right down to basics here - flying an airplane! Sure with more flight time you become more regimented, you know more of what to expect. Maybe you develop a new technique to hold altitude and heading better. Maybe you figure out a new trick to flying a perfect ILS. Sure, all of these things come with experience.

Buts lets both agree to one thing - if you hold a Commercial pilot certificate and are current on your flight time - I don't care HOW many hours you have - you should be able to grab the controls of any aircraft - be it real or a sim - and keep the blue side up and hold altitude. Do you not agree with that? Because if you do not agree, then I think we should question the FAA and its examiners. All airplanes fly by the same principle - pull back, houses get smaller, push forward, houses get bigger! Am I not right?

Bottom line is - a 300 hour pilot should have NO problem holding an altitude or a heading in any aircraft. Just as a 1000hr pilot should have no problems doing the same thing. The 1000hr pilot has seen more - yes! The 1000hr pilot has more experience, probably has some better techniques, but whose to say the 300hr pilot doesn't have a regimented flying ability to adhere to strict procedures as well? What explains a 1000hr pilot then, or ANY pilot reguardless of their flight time for that matter - what explains the lack of ability to hold a simple level C simulator at a constant altitude? A constant heading? A constant airspeed? What, in your opinion causes a high time pilot to not be able to complete a simple task?

I believe, and this is very much my opinion - but I believe the reason is poor aircraft control ability and poor instrument scan! Plain and simple. If you're flying in IMC and your eyes are not glancing over that altimeter every few seconds guess what will happen? The airplane is going to climb or descend! Especially if you are configuring for an approach or cruise configuration. Airplanes are not positively 100% aerodynamically stable and they are not operating in a 100% stable environment. Airplanes need to be flown.

I became very good friends with a DPE who is one of the best pilots I know. Yet his theory and philosophy on flying is very simple. Have discipline when flying and make small changes. Discipline to immediately correct for a deviation and not over correcting. If you see the altitude drifting down, make a small correction, don't yank the heck out of the yoke for a 50' change.

There is never going to be an end to the arguement. I think total flight time relates to that persons amount of time spent in the air. But it shows nothing of that persons ability to handle stress in the cockpit or even fly an airplane by reference to instruments. Regionals are flooded with resumes from pilots with all different flight times. The reason a 400hr guy gets hired over a 1000hr guy has nothing to do with filling a seat for $20k/year. Both pilots were willing to do that. It has nothing to do with that fact and it has nothing to do with flight times. It has to do with knowledge, experience and more importantly skill level. If thats not the case, then I don't know what to say. I think that flying is a skill and some are better then others. Some Nascar drivers have been racing for over 15 years, yet they have never won a race. While brand new "low time" drivers are winning championships. Shouldn't the guys with more epxerience be winning more races? Its the same principle as your low vs. high time pilots right? Just because you have 1000hrs, doesn't make you a great pilot. Might not even make you a good pilot.

I just can't see, according to your theory then, why a 400hr pilot would get chosen over a 1000hr pilot if a sim evaluation proves nothing ?
 
Airdale said:
I used to have strong feelings about flight time relating to experience and abilities. But yesterday after the Colgan interview, a LOT of people with flight times over 800TT did not do well at all on the sim ride. The sim was easy. Fly a simple DP, do a hold, shoot an ILS. An airplane is an airplane, when you fly the thing like its meant to be flown it flies well. Guys with 800 hours were putting the thing into 25deg nose down dives. It put a big question mark in my book on the flight time totals argument. I think its the job of the Regionals to sufficiently evaluate the skill level as well as the knowledge of their applicants. I think having to fly a profile in a full motion sim immediately shows you how well someone's ability to work under pressure (in a new aircraft) and handle simple tasks, like maintaining altitude, heading and shooting an approach. I'm not throwing poo or starting a flame thing here, but when I was instructing at ATP I had guys with well over 1000TT and over 300 multi that could not even hold altitude in a Seminole and flew like they've never been on an ILS approach before. That is just unacceptable for a Commercial pilot.

I agree with flight time comes experience to a certain extent. You get to develop as a pilot, you get to experience weather and various situations. But the bottom line is, if you can't fly an airplane at 300TT, you can't fly an airplane at a 1000TT. Thats my feeling on it. The bottom line here I think is that as long as these companies are thoroughly evaluating the knowledge - experience - and skill level of new pilots, then it doesn't matter what their logbook totals are.
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Can't have both sides of the arguement. I've seen 300TT guys that can't fly for crap, yet when they got some time and experience under their belt, they flew fine. So, I disagree. If you don't constantly try to make yourself a better pilot, that's the PILOT'S issue. I couldn't land in a crosswind to save my life at 300TT (jtrain can attest to that). Now, I can do it just fine. Does that mean I didn't improve or couldn't fly an aiplane? Nope. In any job/experience the more you do it, the better you are.

The problem with the companies evaluating the pilots is this. They need bodies to fill seats so they don't have to cancel flights. If they weed out the guys that are on the fence as far as whether they should or shouldn't be there.....well, they make it based on sheer economics. It's cheaper to get the seat filled than cancel the flight. Odds are the CA is gonna bail him out if he gets into real trouble, right? If they don't hire the guy, they're short staffed and have to cancel the flight due to a shortage of crews.
 
Airdale said:
I just can't see, according to your theory then, why a 400hr pilot would get chosen over a 1000hr pilot if a sim evaluation proves nothing ?
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Dude, a sim eval means jack crap. At ASA they have you fly a full motion CRJ, even if you've never touched a jet. At SKYW they have you fly some old beat up AST (or somthing similar). Why? Not to see what a GREAT pilot you are.

At XJT, Mesa, Comair, and other there is NO sim ride. Why do you suppose? Because some 500 hour pilot cant hold altitude?

Get real.
 
meritflyer said:
Dude, a sim eval means jack crap. At ASA they have you fly a full motion CRJ, even if you've never touched a jet. At SKYW they have you fly some old beat up AST (or somthing similar). Why? Not to see what a GREAT pilot you are.

At XJT, Mesa, Comair, and other there is NO sim ride. Why do you suppose? Because some 500 hour pilot cant hold altitude?

Get real.
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What are sim evals used for?

FedEx, Cathy Pacific, UPS, Northwest, UsAirways, Continental have sim evals.

Sim evals are a mixed bag, some have em, some don't.
 
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