How low can the mins go?

Re: I\'ve been refraining from jumping in here

Let's try not to let CLR4ILS wreck a perfectly interesting thread...

I don't want to downplay training and personal attitude at all. BUT, flying an airplane, especially a sophisticated one in a sophisticated environment, is a very dynamic situation - it's time -critical. When abnormals, emergencies or tricky situations happen, real experience gives the crew the tools they need to react safely and stay several steps ahead of the game. It just comes with flying the plane and handling real life situations that pop up.

The corporate America analogy is interesting, but keep in mind that a pilot must make good decisions quickly based on the current time, fuel, ATC, weather, passenger, and ground facility factors which are in constant flux - changing from minute-to-minute, sometimes second-to-second. If the pilot is experienced, chances are he/she has been thru similar situations before, he/she can anticipate various outcomes and react appropriately and quickly. He/she doesn't have the luxury (i.e. the time) to step out of the cockpit, sit down at a table with a cup of coffee and a stack of manuals, books and and internet connection, and hold a conference-call with all the key people who may have a bearing on the situation.

Perhaps another analogy? Your loved one needs a complicated brain surgery. How comfortable would you be if the neurosurgeon was fresh out of school, with the minimum qualifications? Would you be more comfortable with a surgeon who has done 1000 such surgeries before? When a delicate or critical situation arises during the surgery, do you want a surgeon who has seen that situation before many times, and who can safely and quickly handle it? Or would you be OK with a guy who isn't sure but who has the 'better attitude?'

Again, don't want to downplay attitude, but the longer I'm in this industry, the more I understand the importance of experience and real-world exposure to an ever expanding set of real-world flying situations.
 
Re: I\'ve been refraining from jumping in here

[ QUOTE ]
I don't want to downplay training and personal attitude at all. BUT, flying an airplane, especially a sophisticated one in a sophisticated environment, is a very dynamic situation - it's time -critical. When abnormals, emergencies or tricky situations happen, real experience gives the crew the tools they need to react safely and stay several steps ahead of the game. It just comes with flying the plane and handling real life situations that pop up.

...

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with ya looking4, but people have to gain that experience somewhere. Sooner or later people have to make a jump from CFI (jumper pilot, 135, ec.) to that next big thing and everyone will be behind the ball at that point. Experience will help that person catch up more quickly but somewhere everyone has to get their feet wet.

That doesn't mean I think 300 hour pilots (with, what, 100 or so PIC in piston singles or twins) should be getting their feet wet in a jet (for the most part, there are, obviously, exceptions). But I don't blame them for taking the jobs. No one here can say with a straight face they themselves wouldn't have jumped at the chance if it were offered to them at that point in their carrer. If you say you can you are lying, plain and simple. That doesnt mean you can't change your opinion to the ones you/we hold now but we were/are all young and stupid at some point in our lives. Want someone to blame ... try blaming the pilot factories for preying on unsuspecting, easily impressionable people like CLR4ILS.
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However, I want no one to think that I think it's low time (sub 1,000-ish) pilots that are dragging the industry down. It's inept, impotent management but like I posted previously all it takes is to get pilots arguing and we seem more than happy to destroy ourselves while management looks on with glee.
 
Re: I\'ve been refraining from jumping in here

Even with the brain surgery analogy, the question still remains about those 1,000 surgeries. Were they all routine? Point Tonyw is making is that you cant leave yourself so close-minded that you rule out a newbie. Maybe all that newbie did during school/training dealt with handling those critical or extreme situations. While the 1,000 surgery doc did nothing but routine procedures. Looking at paper you'd think otherwise, but some actual interaction will prove the fresh out of school ex-student may be better suited.
Who knows what they will do in the aviation industry, but just looking at TT and ME should supplement other minimum criteria.
 
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NJA, well with him I just know he doesn't like low-time jet pilots and think they are the cause for the demise of the industry.

[/ QUOTE ]
I guess you guys are making a conscience decision to ignore my statement that I was an IOE Capt and enjoyed flying with low time guys. Ask the FSI guys in VRB about the proposed NJA ab initio program that was in the works prior to 9/11. Remember that?

I did not blame things on PILOTS. It is the industry practice that I am not happy about. I do not blame xxx hour pilots for applying or taking the job. I would have done it then too! But do not go in brainwashed to think that having done an ATP/sim course that you are experienced. If a low timer comes in opened minded and eager that is all anyone can ask.

Certain bogus arguments keep coming up:
*There are good low timers and poor high timers.
TRUE. The problem is the ratio. Maybe 1 of 100 high timers are poor while 1 out of 100 low timers might be good. And wouldn't you know it....he's probably the one with the cocky attitude.

*If military trusts 300 hr pilots, then so should the airlines.
Sure.....then lets make indoc last 2 years like military
flight school. (Not 50 hours in a CRJ sim with generic
SOPs.)
 
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The problem is the ratio. Maybe 1 of 100 high timers are poor while 1 out of 100 low timers might be good.

[/ QUOTE ]

That statement definitely needs a note in small print stating this is not the results from a scientific survey.
If you wanna beleive that, go right on ahead LOL.
 
Like Flychicaga pointed out, just take a look at Netjets payscales and you can see that hiring high time pilots doesn't necessarily equate to high pay. 61k for a 5 year captain? Not too impressive. That's worse than many regionals. Where's the fair compensation for all these guys?
cwm27.gif
Netjets is bringing down the industry, I tell ya. But hey, at least you get to go super-fast in your wicked-awesome citation X. I'd work for free if they let me fly one of those! Yippee![/sarcasm]
 
Just like I figured....keep trying to direct attention somewhere else without sticking to the point.

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... just take a look at Netjets payscales 61k for a 5 year captain?

[/ QUOTE ]
At least after 5 years they ARE captains.
[ QUOTE ]
Not too impressive.

[/ QUOTE ]
Never said it was.
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Where's the fair compensation for all these guys?


[/ QUOTE ]With a 93% strike vote, I'd say we are about to find out.
 
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That statement definitely needs a note in small print stating this is not the results from a scientific survey.
If you wanna believe that, go right on ahead

[/ QUOTE ]
And...Your proof to the contrary is???

Lemme see....Out of a few thousand hours PIC jet I have seen maybe 1 that made me nervous. Out of 1200 hours with low timers, maybe 2 were exceptionally talented.

[ QUOTE ]
What does that prove?

[/ QUOTE ]
About as much as the post I was refering to......Nothing.

*This thread is not endorsed by the Administrator, ATA, NATA, FAA, AFA, EAA, or EIEIO. All views expressed are the views of the posters and do not reflect the views of those listed above.
 
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No, that was a joke. You would have a problem.

I'd interview you....then I'd kick you off of the property for being an idiot . . .

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you missed the point. I do not need to apply at your mysterious school and I certainly wouldn't be schooled by you.

As for throwing me off the property... that would be a neat trick... Better ask check6 if he thinks it would be wise to even joke about that [censored].

easy to hide behind your keyboard isn't it...
 
Re: I\'ve been refraining from jumping in here

[ QUOTE ]
Even with the brain surgery analogy, the question still remains about those 1,000 surgeries. Were they all routine... Maybe all that newbie did during school/training dealt with handling those critical or extreme situations. While the 1,000 surgery doc did nothing but routine procedures.

[/ QUOTE ]

My point is that in 1000 surgeries, just like in 1000 flight hours, you WILL come across unpredictable situations that will make you really earn your pay. Those situations are REAL, non-simulated, outside the comforting embrace of the training environment. There's just no substitute for dealing with the real thing, and that's all I'm saying. Also, it's not a matter of extreme vs. routine events - it's a continuum, shades of grey, if you will. Lots of demanding situations happen every day are handled quickly and smoothly by those that have 'been there, done that' because they know what to expect and they know how to head off potential problems and hiccups in the flow.

[ QUOTE ]
But do not go in brainwashed to think that having done an ATP/sim course that you are experienced

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. I spend a couple weeks in the simulator doing back-to-back emergencies prior to taking my type rating ride. Did that prepare me for the real-world, day-to-day challenges and demands of flying the plane? Well...sort of, but it has been my actual flight time in the plane where I have really grown as a pilot.
 
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[ QUOTE ]
No, that was a joke. You would have a problem.

I'd interview you....then I'd kick you off of the property for being an idiot . . .

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you missed the point. I do not need to apply at your mysterious school and I certainly wouldn't be schooled by you.

As for throwing me off the property... that would be a neat trick... Better ask check6 if he thinks it would be wise to even joke about that [censored].

easy to hide behind your keyboard isn't it geek...

[/ QUOTE ]

Who's the one "hiding" behind the keyboard? We know his name and the company he works for, how bout yours?


..................Exactly.
 
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CLR4ILS, what the hell makes you so special? Stop being an arrogant bastard and just respect the opinions of others for what they are.. OPINIONS! I'm sick of reading your crap.

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I never said I was special and I'm not arrogant. It all starts out as opinions and always ends up in bashing.

I will defend ANY school FBO/Academy/61/141 or whatever...AS LONG AS THEY ARE DOING RIGHT BY THE STUDENT.

If someone wants to ATTEMPT to bash FSA, then I will defend because I believe they only have the students best interest in mind. Not to mention the training is outstanding.

Now, do you see where I am coming from? If so, then great. Too many times on these boards people try to get points across through the use of the keyboard but it doesn't come across the same way as if you were actually talking about it in person.

ILS
 
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If someone wants to ATTEMPT to bash FSA, then I will defend because I believe they only have the students best interest in mind. Not to mention the training is outstanding.


[/ QUOTE ]

I, for one, will bash FSA all day because their supporters seem to think that they are all golden because they came through FSA. I agree that they do have the student's best interest in mind. So does everybody else. We are ALL happy, happy, people.

But best interests aren't worth squat when you don't deliver. Your experience varied from mine. You never paid $$$ to sit for two sessions in which the class instructor just told us to open the gliem and do it. How is that outstanding training-it's a rip off. You never spotted the problems, inconsistencies, and gaps in the training because your experience was different. Either you got lucky or you just don't know how to look for them. I expected the internally trained instructors to be better than my FBO instructors. One was better, one was far worse.

What it comes down to is that you say the training is outstanding. I am saying that everyone who goes there should know : "Your results may vary".
 
[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
That statement definitely needs a note in small print stating this is not the results from a scientific survey.
If you wanna believe that, go right on ahead


And...Your proof to the contrary is???


[/ QUOTE ]

And your legitimate proof to make that statment is?????????
Using that opinion as fact based only on your personal experience or a few others experiences of others is "close-minded" big-time and "ass"inine. Besides your basing that on hiring criteria that is clearly flawed "big-time" and based on that same criteria some people squeaked through. Believe me, you haven't flown with the best low-time has to offer, unless you flew with thousands of low-time pilots.
The way I see it is that new school pilots are coming in. Old school pilots don't like it for the most part. Even with that there is lots to be learned from old school, but I don't have to adopt their ways.
No matter who disagrees, the point is obvious that we are getting better training (as long as it is not a scam) and being prepped to handle things old school couldn't handle at comparable hours. Heck, some of the things weren't even around when old school was training. So, of course many old schoolers will say low-time jet pilots aren't good.
 
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Who's the one "hiding" behind the keyboard? We know his name and the company he works for, how bout yours?




[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know who he is and reaaly do not care...

No hiding here. I own my company and have my hands in alot of things that produce $$$ for me. As for a flying job.....I still fly part time (40 hrs/month)for a couple of lawyers and one doctor when they need to go around or out of state for work. This works for now, but I would still love to fly the line...

Passion is at 30,000 feet, but the paycheck is down here...

Damn airline pay is killing us. At least the flight loans/Riddle loans are paid off.

ILS
 
[ QUOTE ]
But best interests aren't worth squat when you don't deliver. Your experience varied from mine. You never paid $$$ to sit for two sessions in which the class instructor just told us to open the gliem and do it. How is that outstanding training-it's a rip off. You never spotted the problems, inconsistencies, and gaps in the training because your experience was different. Either you got lucky or you just don't know how to look for them. I expected the internally trained instructors to be better than my FBO instructors. One was better, one was far worse.



[/ QUOTE ]


OK...on a even level here, let me ask. When did you go through? I went through in 2000-2001 and then back for CFI/II/MEI in 2002. I never saw the gliem opened in a classroom in that school when I was there. Al St.George, the head of academics HATED that book and every student knew it. If I saw him at the coffee shop, I put it away.


To your defense....I did hear that after St.George left, the new head of academics started using the gliem and alowed for the sale of Gleim and ASA oral guides to be sold in the book store where St.George did not.

From what I understand, they have gone back to the old syllabus for ground schools like the one they used when I was there.

I will agree that you are not paying for "Gleim" instruction in the classroom. Most of the students I knew used it as a last minute cram to test their knowledge before the big game

Sorry your experience wasn't what you were expecting. That is what I am usually defending (the student).

White towel is flying..... I will except that your experience wasn't what you were hoping for and HONESTLY....that pisses me off because EVERY student should have a good experience and recieve EXCELLENT training (no matter where) for their hard earned/borrowed dollar.


You are right...results may vary, but FSA is pretty darn consistant with above average results and pass rates. That is a good thing.


ILS
 
Very informative post MikeD!

Its actually kinda sad what has happened at Sawyer over the past few years. Ever since the operation moved from Sky Harbor to Scottsdale it has, in my opinion, been steadily declining in quality. (Sidenote: I did hear that there has been a recent change in owndership, and Sawyer will soon be Arc Aviation) I really liked some of the PPL training I did there several years ago, but since then the "instructor fees" have really gone up, and the last time I did a rental checkout I wasn't impressed with the operation. I paid instructor fees of approximately $50 per hour on top of some pretty steep rental fees for a Cessna 172...I think around $115 per hour. Now I've never been on the ops side of a flight school, but that seems a little steep to me (especially pre gas-crisis). And the guy I flew with was only seeing about $10-12 bucks of that instructor fee. Do those prices seem right to others? Probably best to save the question for another forum...

I really like the old Sawyer and its manager at he PHX location. I hope Arc cleans house a bit.

To MikeD for being an AZ pilot
rawk.gif

Check_Six
 
[ QUOTE ]

OK...on a even level here, let me ask. When did you go through? I went through in 2000-2001 and then back for CFI/II/MEI in 2002. I never saw the gliem opened in a classroom in that school when I was there. Al St.George, the head of academics HATED that book and every student new it. If I saw him at the coffee shop, I put it away.


To your defense....I did hear that after St.George left, the new head of academics started using the gliem and alowed for the sale of Gleim and ASA oral guides to be sold in the book store where St.George did not.

From what I understand, they have gone back to the old syllabus for ground schools like the one they used when I was there.

I will agree that you are not paying for "Gleim" instruction in the classroom. Most of the students I knew used it as a last minute cram to test their knowledge before the big game

White towel is flying..... I will except that your experience wasn't what you were hoping for and HONESTLY....that pisses me off because EVERY student should have a good experience and recieve EXCELLENT training (no matter where) for their hard earned/borrowed dollar

Sorry your experience wasn't what you were expecting. That is what I am usually defending (the student).


[/ QUOTE ]



I was there post 9-11, when things were pretty bad. Times change, but I was there, they told us all to stay, things are getting better as we speak! Even the head came in to tell us this. Meanwhile, there was a +1 year waiting list for stan classes. They should have been honest with us and said that things are bad right now and we don't know when they will get better. Instead, they told us that things are bad and are getting better, keep paying us and don't jump ship. If I had known better then, I would have left FSA then and there-the resources that they said they had weren't that great. I can only defend students of today to the extent that they don't know what they are doing-they have to rely on people's advice who have been there. When I went to FSA, I didn't know what I was doing. People vary, experiences vary, but the unnoble intentions of an academy stay. The character of someone is judged when times are bad, not when times are good, and the ugly face of FSA was exposed to me then.

I chose my screen name because I support the small FBOs that give an different experience than the academies. It so traumatized me that I chose to identify myself with small, simple flying. Yes, some FBOs suck, and I won't name the bad ones. But I can say that I hated FSA and had a bad experience. Different kinds of people are their customers and provide a different atmosphere. I viewed flying as a journey, something that has become a part of me, something almost childlike in joy. Ils, your views are like the ugly side of childhood- immature. People will read these messages and think that FSA is the best and only way to do things.

I abhor the view that the best training is done by well marketed technical schools filled with egos because someone paid more, because it's not. You have made it clear that FSA is uncomparable to you, and your messages suggest that you were one of those people who thought that "FSA is the HARVARD of flight schools". It's okay if people got jobs with low time-live and learn. It's the system which is wrong. You don't have to support it. But you fail to think that other's views could be right. Be careful, because this is what will limit you in life if you don't change your ways.
 
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[ QUOTE ]
No, that was a joke. You would have a problem.

I'd interview you....then I'd kick you off of the property for being an idiot . . .

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you missed the point. I do not need to apply at your mysterious school and I certainly wouldn't be schooled by you.

As for throwing me off the property... that would be a neat trick... Better ask check6 if he thinks it would be wise to even joke about that [censored].

easy to hide behind your keyboard isn't it...

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't worry - no threats here! And no secrets!

And the trick really isn't that hard - I'd just ask you to leave! If you didn't, I'd call the police, and press charges for trespassing!
smile.gif
 
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