How low can the mins go?

Re: CLR4ILS

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Definitely not me.......since 135 freight was some of the funnest flying I've done in my time. Just the freedom of it, as well as the challenge.

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That comment wasn't directed to anyone from this board (Aultough Ole John Tenney once made that comment towards me in a chat) But I had plenty of my "peers" from my old regional job think I was an idiot.

I agree that 135 Freight was some of the most fun and best experience I ever had. I wouldn't give it up the memories for anything.
 
I make more than most of the 2-year regional pilots here . . .
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Never thought you'd hear a CFI say that, eh?
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Sorry . . . trying to get some smiles . . .
 
Re: CLR4ILS

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Clr3ils, I did my training at 2 different FBOs, both part 61 and 141. The training was fine and I was happy. I went to FSA and was unhappy.



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I did my PPL before FSA at an FBO. The training didn't even come close to FSA. Been there done that twice.


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Of my 2 instructors, I knew more about IFR flying from my 61 experiences than one FSA instructor. So he put up a defensive attitude about it and our relationship went south. Just because someone was hired by FSA doesn't mean that they know their stuff.


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BS FLAG....theres no way you "a student" knew more than two CFI"S that went through strict standardization and numerous check rides/orals before they could instruct.

I WILL BET.... you showed up to FSA with your bad FBO piloting habits THINKING you knew everything and the instructors kicked your a$$. That is when you developed an attitude and your relationship with 2, yes 2 instructors went south. I have seen it before.

As for the rest...I still call BS. Sorry you couldn't handle the dicipline that was required at the school..

ILS

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Regarding you betting on anything about me, I would love it. You know nothing about me, and I know nothing about you. But happily, the internet exposes the truth. I don't know what is more ugly: the words you have typed, or the person I suspect that lay behind them.

You should read posts carefully before replying to them. I said 1 instructor was bad. And yes I did know more than 1 of my FSA instructors. I will not name names, but I came to FSA with my IFR he was just not good in IFR.

I am tying this not to argue with an anonymous person, as I could care less about idiots. I participate here so that some people who are starting out can see some sound voices.
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Re: CLR4ILS

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Most everyone else on here is scared to say it , but you are an idiot. Enjoy your Flight Safety T-Shirt and Mug.

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No.....honest [censored]. Where did you train? I have been on both sides (FBO/Safety/Riddle) and I speak from experience.

I get irritated when schools promise good training and do not deliver (like "most" FBO's).

As for the mug and T-shirt...well, I didn't get em. But, what I did get was excellent training and I am happy with that.

ILS
 
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I WILL BET.... you showed up to FSA with your bad FBO piloting habits THINKING you knew everything and the instructors kicked your a$$.

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Wanna come and interview at my school? Shoot me a resume RIGHT NOW!!!!

You're just the kind of guy I'd just love to interview!
 
Re: CLR4ILS

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I don't know if some aspiring pilots understand the amount of debt they'll be getting into, and, more importantly, how long it will take them to pay off the interest AND the principal. Flying is inherently expensive, but that doesn't mean that you cannot get a quality education, all of your ratings, and a CFI gig for a fraction of what you might pay at large academia. Then again, if you're comfortable with $120,000+ debt and feel that the training is commensurate with the pricetag, by all means, go that route!

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Well, I spent about $45,000 through MEI including some living money at FSA. I have already paid it all off (Love the realestate market).

The problem is.....all of the FBO's I have seen lately are charging the same prices. Heck, you may as well go to a school where you know you will get good training rather then chance it.

ILS
 
What school might that be?

If I needed a job that might be worth entertaining. I do not think I would have a problem.

Thanks for the offer though.

ILS
 
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What school might that be?


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No, that was a joke. You would have a problem.

I'd interview you....then I'd kick you off of the property for being an idiot . . .
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I did both 61 and 141 too.

61 experience: Sawyer Aviation, Phoenix, Arizona.....1987-88.

Pros:

-good syllabus
-good training both air and ground, wide variety of experienced CFIs (military, airline, corporate)
-reasonable cost for rental/instructor rates.
-good aircraft...basic aircraft (this was prior to the GPS craze, etc)
-operating out of KPHX....TCA airport. As a student pilot, I was getting slam dunk descending 270s to land, and was expected to be off at the second high-speed exit.

Cons:

-not exceptionally structured, however the program was flexible
-fewer aircraft, and when the schedule came out, if I didn't block the times I wanted, I was limited on when I could be "penciled in"
-flying out of KPHX, could potentially be intimidating for some due to the large amount of traffic

rates (1987 dollars) C-152: $38/hr; C-172: $40/hr; C-182: $60/hr; instructor: $40/hr. Overall PPL cost, about $3,100 (1988 $$$)

141 experience: Embry-Riddle, Prescott, AZ. 1989-1992

Pros:

-excellent ground training. ground instructors had vast amounts of experience, and classes were well taught.
-large fleet of aircraft, well maintained....rare to experience problems getting scheduled
-flight training was OK. Many newbie instructors compared to experienced ones (expected)
-good program structure. good training syllabus just like the FBO had

Cons:

-limited experience of CFIs. Many new, just-graduated CFIs teaching rote basics, with not much more experience than the student. Didn't realize it then as much, but when I got out into the industry, it was apparent. Of course, there were experienced pilots as CFIs too who provided good training.
-cost.....even for the "extras", the cost was mostly name. Example, the PPL program there, which I didn't go through since I had it, was about mid-$4,500-ish, or so at the time.
-lesser flexibility for moving on the schedule. Couldn't pick times necessarily, could only schedule mornings/afternoons. In fairness, much of this is driven by academic workload and times.
-weird flight programs like FA-416...CRM in a Seminole. Being taught by the same newbie CFI who likely had little to no experience in real-world CRM. That program was about $3000, was required as a 400-level flight elective if you didn't want to do CFI.

Costs (1990 dollars), as I remember: C-172: $50/hr; C-182RG: $75/hr PA-44: $130/hr; instructor: $40/hr.

So besides the academics, which were very good; flying-wise, I didn't gain anything going to Riddle that I couldn't have gotten from Sawyer, IMHO.
 
CLR4ILS, what the hell makes you so special? Stop being an arrogant bastard and just respect the opinions of others for what they are.. OPINIONS! I'm sick of reading your crap.
 
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Is a 15-year RJ FO somehow less of a pilot than a 15-yr CE-650 Captain?

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We aren’t talking about a 15 year anything. We are talking about the low time newhires here. This is the reason these threads turn into 6 pages of playground antics. No-one sticks to the point. No one mentioned pay, no one mentioned 91/141. Just low time.

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There are too many variables into making a good airline pilot to choose one thing.

[/ QUOTE ]That’s right. There are too many variables, and one way to eliminate some of the danger is to have higher minimums. It’s not one thing, it was the last thing. They already eliminated the requirements for an ATP and a college degree. Now its “High school grad or equivalent” How pathetic.

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We are ALL at fault: Regional, Major, Fractional; Pilots in general.

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No, it IS the regionals. No one else is hiring (on a large scale) low time pilots.

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So when you see some 600-hour regional jet pilot, don't automatically turn up your nose and say "I'm better than you."

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That is not the problem. The problem is when the 600 hour wonder starts telling us how much better he is, how experienced he is, or how he is just as qualified as a 6000 hr pilot. So if you do walk up to a senior airman with those claims, you had better be prepared to back it up or be taken down a few notches.

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MikeD - Why is it only low time pilots are defending the idea that low timers are just as comparable as high time pilots?

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Yea, big shocker huh?
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To paraphrase Jack Nicholson in A Few Good Men:
We use words like HONOR, CODE, and LOYALTY. We use these words as the very backbone of a life spent flying aircraft. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide. I prefer you to just say thank you and go on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you get a job, and build your time. Either way, I don't give a **** what you think you are entitled to!"
 
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No, it IS the regionals. No one else is hiring (on a large scale) low time pilots.


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I am really new to aviation. I know there are always pilots out there who have outstanding experiences and excellent piloting skills Therefore, I am eager to learn from those pilots.
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However, NJA_Capt, I am interesting about your opiniion how low time pilots(such as me, looking for my first CFI job) to gain experiences and hours
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adreamer
 
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However, NJA_Capt, I am interesting about your opiniion how low time pilots(such as me, looking for my first CFI job) to gain experiences and hours


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Azo - You just answered your own question.

I'd like to give a shout-out to CLR4ILS. Thanks for ruining a perfectly decent and interesting thread with this FBO vs FSA BS that should have stayed back in the Flight Training forums.
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We aren’t talking about a 15 year anything. We are talking about the low time newhires here. This is the reason these threads turn into 6 pages of playground antics. No-one sticks to the point. No one mentioned pay, no one mentioned 91/141. Just low time.


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I'm sure that was an example. Take exaples for what they're worth.

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That’s right. There are too many variables, and one way to eliminate some of the danger is to have higher minimums. It’s not one thing, it was the last thing. They already eliminated the requirements for an ATP and a college degree. Now its “High school grad or equivalent” How pathetic.


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Considering the way the industry has been run/managed get used to that high school grad or equivalent. Not saying it's right, but this will be the trend for a long time.

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That is not the problem. The problem is when the 600 hour wonder starts telling us how much better he is, how experienced he is, or how he is just as qualified as a 6000 hr pilot. So if you do walk up to a senior airman with those claims, you had better be prepared to back it up or be taken down a few notches.


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There are some 600 hour pilots that are better than some 6000 hour pilots. People look at time so much they dont consider quality of time.
Every time I see a sport or profession where you need that A-type personality to succeed, pilots are the only ones that get mad at other pilots for strutting whatever they have. Seems that I'd be more concerned with someone not willing to learn.

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Why is it only low time pilots are defending the idea that low timers are just as comparable as high time pilots?

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I don't think any low-timer is trying to compare themselves or as say they are as competent as the more senior pilots. Speaking for myself and what I see are low-timers saying don't count me out.
 
Re: CLR4ILS

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Most everyone else on here is scared to say it , but you are an idiot. Enjoy your Flight Safety T-Shirt and Mug.

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No.....honest [censored]. Where did you train? I have been on both sides (FBO/Safety/Riddle) and I speak from experience.

I get irritated when schools promise good training and do not deliver (like "most" FBO's).

As for the mug and T-shirt...well, I didn't get em. But, what I did get was excellent training and I am happy with that.

ILS

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And who do you fly for?
 
I was going to write a response, but how can you follow up to the Jack Nicholson quote?

I'm not going to put the effort into having a discussion with people who are not open minded. You (DE and NJA) obviously have your negative opinions about low time pilots and their positions in the industry. It is also very clear that you feel low time regional new-hires are the reasoning behind the current industry slide. It has nothing to do with poor management, oil prices, ticket prices, concessions, furloughs (you do know the regionals have been hiring furloughed major pilots, correct?), or alter-ego carriers. It is only the fact that some of us were offered positions at regional airlines on merit, and have succeeded. But I guess in your minds, without us flying for $12,000 as CFIs, $20,000 in night cargo, and racking up debt, we haven't "earned" anything.

So I'll continue to work hard to continue learning, operating the aircraft safely from A to B, destroying the industry one flight hour at a time. Sorry that as I continue to try and grow as a professional pilot, I will never have earned that title in your eyes. I'm not flying to gain your approval. I'm flying for me, and learning as much as possible for the people in back.
 
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At least DE727 came out and said something to the effect that he won't be convinced, so this convo is impossible and will be a never-ending issue unless he changes his mind. NJA, well with him I just know he doesn't like low-time jet pilots and think they are the cause for the demise of the industry.
 
I\'ve been refraining from jumping in here

But I can't anymore. Plus, I'm not waiting on slow wi-fi to load and am back to high speed access so....

Anyway, I can't speak for how the aviation industry works. But I can speak to the way corporate America works, and I figure the aviation industry isn't too much different.

I've seen this happen before. Too many times, people care about where the degree (or rating) comes from, instead of the quality of the person who's got that sheepskin. I've seen Ivy League grads who couldn't do jack squat, and I've seen guys from schools which are considered "party schools" do great work.

I figure it's the same way in aviation. Some guys from the name schools rock, some suck, and the same goes for the guys from Mom and Pop Aviation.

Also, in corporate America, I've seen way too many people look at years of experience, bring in someone who's got a lot of it, and turn away a guy who doesn't have as much experience but who has a better attitude.

Just to give you a personal example, I once interviewed for a job with a company, and was told, well, I wanted to hire you, but my boss said, no, go with the other guy. He's got more experience.

Six months later, the company was on the phone with me, asking me if I was working.

So what's my point? Simple. It's not where you get the training, nor is it the experience. It's the person. You've got to have minimum qualifications, but sometimes, the guy from the no-name school with less experience is the better person for the job.

Okay, guys, feel free to flame away at my 244 hour butt.
 
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