How is PFT different from ... ?

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That is so true for just about any job. My husband has helped many of his friends get various jobs just be being their referral, when they truely did not deserve it. I think it would be great if there was an end to referals. In my opinion a referal means nothing. A resume and interview should be far more valuable then knowing some one in aviation.

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You're right, it's rampant. But that won't stop me from bitching about it
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Well when we toured DCA they had some "numbers" but I tend to think they were not 100% accurate. IF they were however, they were claiming something like, an FBO pilot with 3000 hours is getting passed up for a DCA pilot with 1000 hours. I don't want to start any problems, but I tend to think not many people could afford to get to 3000 hours and STILL not have a job. I think at about 2000 I'd call it quits or try another approach. Am I way off or does it sound inaccurate to you also? I am curious to see some actual numbers though, that would be very interesting. Maybe you could start a poll and have current professional pilots answer which way they went, if no one can find any statistics.
 
Yeah I'd like to know cause I gotta go the FBO route and would like to at least think (in my own head anyway) that I may be able to go to the airlines someday
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No kidding! I hate thinking that my husband is just wasting his time! We really wanted to get him to FSI but now we have to deal with the FBO that we don't care for at all. His instructor interviewed with SkyWest a month or so ago and didn't get hired, and that does not make me feel good.
 
Well its not wasting time
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He will be one hell of a 172 captain at any rate
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But yeah I know the feeling! Someone on here will know the stats
 
I know i'm just repeating what others are saying, but:


First off, if someone is walking in your resume, it is not at all a guarenteed job. Yes, you may have an edge over your competetors, nobody said you wouldn't; that is the point of a referral after all. It's the way the world goes round but it is not the same as PFT.


You are still being compensated just lthe same as similar person who didn't have their resume walked in would be.

I n 'PFT', you are PAYING for a position someone would normally be PAID for. It's that simple! It is not only unfair, it is bad for commercial pilots as a whole.

Why should management pay first officers anything other than table scraps, there are people with fat cheques ready to fly that seat, and pay YOU!

Why shouldn't those pilots take a paycut, hell, those ungrateful bastards- we've got more people who will do it and pay us.

I don't care how many times you say it, forking over cash for a position, and being referred are not even close to the same thing. If PFT was even just that- paying for a position, it wouldn't be the same issue. It goes beyond that; it takes a compensated position and hands it to someone PAYING for that position without compensation (or enough compensation to make it look legit, 8 dollar an hour? That's bad enough for the industry if it wasn't PFT). It is unfair to those pilots who have worked to get where they are, and those who are *working* to get where they would like to be, regardless of how many evil referrals they got.



Just remember, I'm really tired.. Probably have spelling like a 5 year old and repeating.. Still.
 
Powerlifter,

Sounds like that's pretty much all you do,,,,bitch. Good luck to you. You're gonna need it with the attitude you have. I don't care what your opinions or feelings are, that is how the business works. So, once again, good luck to ya. Oh and by the way, the two "walk-in's" or recommendations I've had; both pilots had extensive time in the cockpit with me. They know exactly who I am and what kind of pilot I am. I don't give somebody a recommendation unless I've flown with them and know them well. Your point, if that's what you want to call it, has run it's course. Thanks for the debate.
 
jonnnyb,

If I had your capacity for debate, I think I'd resort to polemics, too. Also, don't bother wishing me luck when you don't mean it.

"I don't care what your opinions or feelings are, that is how the business works." Quite an argument there, whew. Of course, if you didn't care, you never would have argued with me in the first place. You sure as hell wouldn't wish me luck, either. And you think I'm the one with the bad attitude.

Two of your walk-ins came from pilots who could attest your skills as a pilot. We'll have to take your word for it. Regardless, any reasonable person would agree that recomendations usually have little to do with skill and much to do with friendship/family obligations. Do you really think your friendship with those pilots in no way affected their assesment of your pilot skills? Suuure. The bottom line is that if your resume was top notch, you wouldn't need the walk-in. You say that your skills, which apparently aren't reflected by your resume, warrant special consideration. Fine, but shouldn't that opportunity be afforded to all applicants? If it isn't, then once again, you're unfairly competing. You, like so many others, leveraged a personal connection and wormed into a job, leaving some better-qualified pilot jobless, all because he didn't know the right person. Tough luck, right?
 
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I think it would be great if there was an end to referals. In my opinion a referal means nothing. A resume and interview should be far more valuable then knowing some one in aviation.

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It depends on what kind of referral you're giving. I will be honest with the person who I pass the resume along to. If I get someone in the door who is incompetent, well, guess what happened to my reputation and career path? Can you say down the toilet?

On the other hand, if I get someone in the door who is damn good and makes me look like a genius for passing his resume along, well, that makes me look a hell of a lot better, too.
 
Actually...

To chime in on this.

There is a big difference between being a student (grad or otherwise) and being, to borrow from the previous examples a doctor.

Yes, med student is paying for their training, and even once their interning they're paying. The difference is that they aren't doctors.

PFT for doctors would basically work like this:

1. Show up at hospital with no previous medical expericence
2. Pay $10K
3. Get a job as a doctor and start treating people immediately.

That's PFT. Whoever said it is right, it shouldn't be pay for training. It should be pay for job.

Now I'm not in the professional aviation world, but the the logic of PFT fails me. No one pays to work. That defeats the purpose...to make money.

Bad for the industry or not PFT is just plain stupid.

And powerlifter just a question. To quote from Seabiscuit: "What are you so angry at?"

Naunga
 
Look folks, powerlifter, it's very simple.

PFT is not the same thing as favoritism. Why? Because you are paying to do work for someone else when they should be paying YOU.

Favoritism is just that a leg up ... not a guarantee. Even the guaranteed "interviews" - we'll even assume that it's a perfect world and everyone who enrolls GETs a job - it's still that a PAYING job.

PFT is NOT a paying job. It's exploitation.

People can compare it to internships and residencies all day long but the bottom line is - it IS different.

A traditional internship is unpaid. The other two examples given were TA and medical intern - both are PAID positions. Yes the student in all three cases is paying tuition but the tuition is generally for the DEGREE they are pursuing. The extra work experience is just that - extra. In all three cases the student is NOT paying the hospital, the university or the business anythign EXTRA for the sole purpose of perfroming the medical internship, the TA, or the traditional internship duties/functions.

You can argue walked in resumes, "guaranteed" interviews (and regardless of what you say there are plenty of folks in the MPAD program waiting for their "guaranteed" job right now) and the ethical ramifications of said philosophies until the end of time.

But, if for no other reason, PFT is wrong because YOU are PAYING someone to WORK for THEM! After you have completed your training.

Would you walk up to your current boss and hand him a check to perfrom the duties of whatever job you hold right now? If not why the • would you do it to fly an airplane?

This is an extremely simple concept folks: paying someone for the "privilege" of working for them is flat out wrong. That is the issue.
 
What\'s acceptable?

For the newbies considering the "factories," could those arguing this debate list which ones they would consider acceptable and those which aren't?
 
Re: What\'s acceptable?

Windchill. In my view, stay away from Gulfstream. TAB express needs more research but they may be doing the same thing.

We aren't talking about bridge programs at the pilot mills. This isn't PFT. While I don't like the idea of bridge programs that put 300 hour pilots into the right seat....those programs are not PFT.
 
Re: What\'s acceptable?

So there has been some say Alpine and Ameriflight are PFT and some say they aren't. How do you clarify?
 
Re: What\'s acceptable?

Powerlift, I disagree about the walking in being equivalent to PFT for this reason, there's more to pilot qualifications than just the ability to fly an aircraft and the number of hours one has logged, WAY more.

Anyone who has the required mins has demonstrated the reasonable ability to fly an airplane. However, it has been mentioned over and over on this board that some pilots with X number of hours can "out-fly" another pilot with double that number. There's really no way to look at an applicant on paper and discover, truly, how qualified he is to fly the airplane, because you're just looking at logged numbers, which isn't a true indication of skill at all. That's why in the interview process you fly in the sim, to test your skills. So what is the HR person looking for in the apps? Well rounded, stable professionals with good work ethic who won't embarrass the airline, be a pain in the tail to work with, etc. And that kind of information can best be found through personal referrals. Brother-in-law or not, if he's a jerk, even if I do walk in his resume out of family obligation, I'm gonna tell the HR person "He's my brother-in-law. He can fly, but he's a pill to deal with," so I don't look bad if she hires him anyway. So, walk-ins and networking, I submit, DO make a person more qualified. It lets the HR person know before calling them in that the applicant has the personal characteristics they're looking for. They'll test for skill at the sim part of the interview So I don't think it displaces more qualified applicants at all, it floats the cream to the top. Because, in my experience, people who are hard working and get along well with others are the ones who network well and end up getting the referrals. The networking system just saves the HR person time and money by avoiding interview with some of the jerks and idiots out there, because NO ONE will walk in there resume.

That's just my humble opinion from 10+ years in the corporate world.

Heath
 
The Wife

PFT shouldn't even be called PFT. It should be called PFJ. There are no FAA or union rules on what is and what is not PFT. I have my PFT line, and, as I've stated before, I draw my line at the "can you dispatch the plane without me". If you can go without the F/O....then it's not PFT. It would then be considered just buying right seat time to build multi or turbine hours...nothing more, nothing less. The value of this time is questionable....but it's not PFT if you can go without me.

So....

If you can go without F/O...it's not PFT.
If you can go without me...it's not PFT.

In the end....it's just my opinion. There is no hard and fast rules.
 
Re: The Wife

If they CAN go without you though, doesn't that prevent you from being able to log it as SIC? And if you log it as PIC if they let you take over, does that violate anything?
 
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