How is PFT different from ... ?

[pilot602]

[ QUOTE ]
Sure they do ... I was a grad student and almost became a medical student. Graduate students pay tuition but get a little back when they TA. Medical students pay even more and get even less back when during their rotations (less than $10 an hour in pay with the national average of $105,000 in student loans owed upon graduation and entry into your residency). Gulfstream "pays" their pilots after they train in their program. It's no different.


[/ QUOTE ]

But as a Grad student or Medical student you are still, also, paying for that extra degree (Maters, Phd, etc.) - not just the "work" experience from TA'ing or Interning.

PFT is simply paying someone to work for them. That's it. There's no guarantee that at the end of your hours they'll hire you. Hell why would they when you just paid them money to work for them? Why not just say, hey we dont have an opening but you're welcome to pay us again ...

 

[derg]

You know, I just had one of those weird, half-baked epiphanies...

If we're going to compare PFT to the airlines, anyone consider that after getting out of medical school, you're required to do your residency. But if you look at some of the PFT programs, basically, you're using cash to bypass the residency and go straight into practicing medicine.

Am I way off base here?

I gets no respect oh!

 

[stuckingfk]

[ QUOTE ]
But as a Grad student or Medical student you are still, also, paying for that extra degree (Maters, Phd, etc.) - not just the "work" experience from TA'ing or Interning.

PFT is simply paying someone to work for them. That's it. There's no guarantee that at the end of your hours they'll hire you. Hell why would they when you just paid them money to work for them? Why not just say, hey we dont have an opening but you're welcome to pay us again ...

[/ QUOTE ]

Disclaimer: I don't support Gulfstream or PFT.

I should have wrote this earlier. Many friends of mine here at UND do internships before they graduate. Over half of them that do it, don't get. But to do the internship, they have to pay tuition here at UND still. So in all reality, they are paying for experience.

Example: My cousin just graduated from the Occupational Therapy program here at UND. One of the requirements to graduate from here is to do 2 or 3 interships that aren't paid. But she still has to pay tuition here while she is doing that. So technically you could look at this as PFT or PFE.

 

[powerlifter]

[ QUOTE ]

A walked-in resume is not a guaranteed job. The resume still has to have the right numbers on it. It still has to go through the hiring board and then YOU have to pass interviews background checks, etc. ad nauseum. PFT you are paying someone to work for them. You receive no salary, no benefits no compensation other than "flight time" for any and all work you perform. That's just insane.

[/ QUOTE ]

What difference does it make if the job is guaranteed or not? With PFT, you pay for the job. With a walked-in resume, you give yourself an artificial advantage over the competition, regardless of your qualifications. They're nearly the same thing, except one involves paying money for a guaranteed job, and the other involves utilizing connections for a boost not warranted by your qualifications. Sure, the good ol' boy may not be able to "guarantee" that job, but he can definitely improve your chances. What do you say to the high-time pilot out there who didn't get the job because his brother's best friend doesn't work there? Tough luck?

[ QUOTE ]

Just because the big, glossy ads in "Flying" say they guarantee you an interview it, in reality, means nothing. An interview can be nothing more than a "hi, thanks for the resume. Contact us in X hours." or an actual interview. It still comes down to the pilot to land the job and have the right numbers on the resume. Those school can legally guarantee you nothing. You might get a shot at an interview but that is about it. PFT is paying to ride around in a seat that could other wise be occupied by a paid pilot. That's it.

[/ QUOTE ]

First, pretty much everyone who knows about the MAPD/PACE program agrees that the job is yours to lose. If you don't screw up during training, you'll very likely get a job w/ Mesa or Freedom. So, the guarantee isn't meaningless. It really does mean a lot.

Second, getting an interview puts your resume towards the top of the stack. If you've made the interview, your chances have greatly improved. Think about the hundreds of faceless applicants you'll be competing against. So if you pay for an interview, aren't you basically just paying somebody to bump your resume up the stack?

Btw, I'm not naive. I know that favoritism will always occur. Hell, some airlines (JB) even give their pilots interview tickets or something to that effect. This forum is a place for me to vent my opinion about how things should be. To me, it's disturbing to see seasoned pilots condone favoritism/PFI under the guise of "networking". Imho, when you've paid money for an interview or had a resume walked in, you're not much better than the PFTer who forks over $10k up front for the job.

 

[powerlifter]

[ QUOTE ]
Powerlifter,

No offense dude, but you're way off base

. Your assessment of these issues is incorrect. Like what was said earlier, you are comparing apples to oranges. The two jobs I've applied for so far in this business, I have benefited from the help of having my resume walked in. I got both jobs. This was not because I couldn't have obtained the position on my own. It's because I really wanted the jobs and I did what it took to have the most advantage. How you are comparing this to PFT is beyond me.

[/ QUOTE ]

No offense taken, I enjoy the debate. If you couldn't have obtained that position on your own, then why did you have the resume walked in? You've got to admit that by utilizing your connection, you got an aritificial advantage over the competition. I am comparing that to PFT since pilots agree that PFT 1) displaces more qualified pilots and 2) depressed pilot wages. Having your resume walked in is very similar to PFT with respect to point #1. So, if pilots hate PFT because of #1, shouldn't they also hate walked-in resumes because of #1?

[ QUOTE ]

Regardless, networking and internal referrals are common practice in most fields. That's the way the world works and that's how it is. PFT is looked down upon for good reasons and internal referrals, such as having a resume walked in, are not looked upon in a negative light. That explains it right there. Any further analysis of this topic would be beating a dead horse,,,,in my opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]

No doubt, favoritism is rampant. I guess my take on the whole situation is that I don't see milking a connection as being that far from paying for the job. The rationalization is the same: I really want this job, competition be damned. The end result is usually the same: highly qualified applicants are displaced.

 

[SierraPilot]

[ QUOTE ]
Btw, I'm not naive. I know that favoritism will always occur. Hell, some airlines (JB) even give their pilots interview tickets or something to that effect. This forum is a place for me to vent my opinion about how things should be. To me, it's disturbing to see seasoned pilots condone favoritism/PFI under the guise of "networking". Imho, when you've paid money for an interview or had a resume walked in, you're not much better than the PFTer who forks over $10k up front for the job.

[/ QUOTE ]

I totally agree.

Just because favoritism plays a role in all jobs and life in general doesnt mean its right.. while we all know life isnt fair, you have effectively jumped ahead of the line due to your networking. You can coat it with icing or change the flavor to your liking but in the end it all comes down to the fact you have cut ahead of someone who may be more qualified then you.. the only difference is society has accepted this as normal and PFT isnt.. and while you may dislike it.. you are no better then the next guy for doing it.

You can say you could of obtained the position on your own, but if that was true... you wouldnt need someone to walk your resume in and more then likely it would of ended up on the bottom of the pile and some guy who had a friend their would of cut ahead of you because his friend walked his resume in, and if you dont think thats reality you are nieve.

While you can say networking is an important part of aviation career advancement and will always be.. the reality is you have displaced a pilot. While a walked-in resume is not a guaranteed job neither is PFTing or a bridge program. Sure the resume still has to have the right numbers on it, and It still has to go through the hiring board and you have to pass the interviews background checks, etc, but in order to be a pilot with Gulfstream you will still have to pass your sim rides, your written test, and your checkride, etc. which is no guarentee.

While it is true your paying gulfstream for experience, you do get paid.. and while it is crap for pay.. you could also say these people who pay the airlines for a right seat and crap pay hurts the industry.. I would say that alot of pilots at these regional airlines who accept concessions and willing to accept crap wages and who are selling out their profession are doing alot more to hurt the industry then any 1 PFTer could do alone.

You know doug and no offense because I do respect you as a pilot, but If I had to fly with someone with your attitude who judges someone on the basis of paying for PFT vs the pilots ability to do the job because you have some pre-conceived idea's of PFT then I sure as hell wouldnt want to work with someone like you. Not because I condone PFT.. but because I believe in treating people fairly. While I might not like the way they got there.. if they can perform the job.. more power to them. Then again to be fair you would have to treat everyone who did a bridge program, PFTers, Walked-in resume pilots all the same and probably half the captains at delta who probably did PFT at some point in their career.. the same.. since you dont or wont I'll just say thats hypocritical.

Ryan

 

[shep]

What does everyone consider favoritism? As a person in a position to hire in a non-aviation field, I appreciate a co-worker recommending an applicant. An applicant still must meet the minimum requirements but a strong reference carries weight with me. In my experience, the vast majority of the time co-workers only recommend an applicant that they would be willing to closely with on a daily basis. It is a double edge sword because a portion of your reputation will always be associated with the new hire.

I am confident that if the end user of the product (airlines) NEVER hire pilots that gained their experience through PFT, the number of companies offering this training would be zero. I have a difficult time faulting the pilot or holding a grudge because they chose to take advantage of a program that works.

 

[SierraPilot]

[ QUOTE ]
What does everyone consider favoritism? As a person in a position to hire in a non-aviation field, I appreciate a co-worker recommending an applicant. An applicant still must meet the minimum requirements but a strong reference carries weight with me. In my experience, the vast majority of the time co-workers only recommend an applicant that they would be willing to closely with on a daily basis. It is a double edge sword because a portion of your reputation will always be associated with the new hire.

[/ QUOTE ]

And more than likely that person who was recommended was put on top of the pile and probably qualified for the position and therefore that resume that was mailed in never even got looked at and is now displaced due to this favoritism, so why even continue looking when you have a co-worker hand you a resume of someone they know to be qualified for the job.. even if that resume at the bottom of the pile might be some guy who is more qualified..

Ryan

 

[DE727UPS]

\"then I sure as hell wouldnt want to work with someone like you\"

Ryan...add me to your list, while you're at it. Your guess that half of the pilots at Delta PFT'ed is way off base. I'd guess at least two thirds are ex-military. I can say with the UPS pilots I've talked with over the years about how they got to the seat...a very small percentage did a bridge program...I'd guess less than 5 percent. I've met one (1) that had Gulfstream in her background.

"While I might not like the way they got there.. if they can perform the job.. more power to them"

How would you feel about flying with a scab? Would you say the same thing? (not in any way comparing PFTing with being a scab, by the way)

 

[jonnyb]

No problem Ryan. Although I don't believe for a second that you would turn down an interview for a position you have worked your whole life to attain,,,,,,,say what you want. I don't believe you guys and I doubt anyone else here does either.

So, if you want to find yourself 600 numbers below your potential to stand up for your unrealistic and non-existent principles, then that's your prerogative. I won't loose any sleep either way, I just have a really hard time understanding your viewpoint.

Oh and please, whoever it was, stop comparing the quality of these civilian revenue-based pilot factories to military pilot training. Once again, apples and oranges.

 

[powerlifter]

Re: \"then I sure as hell wouldnt want to work with someone like you\"

[ QUOTE ]

How would you feel about flying with a scab? Would you say the same thing? (not in any way comparing PFTing with being a scab, by the way)


[/ QUOTE ]

Scab .. you mean someone who breaks a picket line because he's willing to work below the union rate? God forbid pilots start working for what they think they're worth, and not what the union says they're worth. Why on earth should he sacrifice his job for your sake? Sorry for going OT, but I couldn't resist responding to a scab comment.

 

[powerlifter]

[ QUOTE ]

So, if you want to find yourself 600 numbers below your potential to stand up for your unrealistic and non-existent principles, then that's your prerogative. I won't loose any sleep either way, I just have a really hard time understanding your viewpoint.

[/ QUOTE ]

You've got to admit, that sounds like something a PFTer would say to those who criticize his decision to bribe someone for a job. If you think a person's refusal to cheat the system by displacing better-qualified pilots is an "unrealistic" principle, then .. well .. what's stopping you from PFTing?

 

[jonnyb]

Fortunately powerlifter, I've already paid my dues and don't need to pay for anything. The only things I've ever paid for in this business were my certificates and ratings. This whole thing about "displacing better-qualified pilots"......what's that all about? These individuals are being hired based on recommendation of a current employee. Someone the company knows and trusts to be the "better-qualified" pilot they were looking for. Besides, we already discussed that everyone has to go through the same process. If you get in the sim and suck or fail IOE, then you're out! Then there is another slot for the "better-qualified" pilot to have a shot. You're not making any sense at all.

 

[jonnyb]

If you think a person's refusal to cheat the system.....


Cheat the system??????? What are you talking about? Let me guess,,,,,,,,you're not even involved in professional civil aviation are you? It's obvious man.

 

[SierraPilot]

[ QUOTE ]
No problem Ryan. Although I don't believe for a second that you would turn down an interview for a position you have worked your whole life to attain,,,,,,,say what you want. I don't believe you guys and I doubt anyone else here does either.

[/ QUOTE ]

Damn straight.. and I wouldnt give it a second thought.. nor if I decided to PFT at some point would I give it a second thought.. and hopefully if I was lucky I might even take a job from someone like you

and not give it a second thought.. and I definately wouldnt lose any sleep over it. Welcome to the business world...

Ryan

 

[jonnyb]

Lucky is right!

I like the passion Ryan. However, I'm pretty successful in business as well and it works the other way. Your contacts and "in's" are some of the most important factors in business success. Nice try though.

 

[TheWife]

Ok, I think this might be a better comparison then the medical one. (I hope anyway) People who go to school to get their massage degrees get to a point where they do massage on customers to practice, and the customers pay a reduced rate since it's a practice. Well, not only are the customers paying for the massage, but the student is also STILL paying tuition to GIVE the massage and NOT being paid for it. It's just how things are done. Students are willing to do that so they get the experience they need. And as an employeer I think I would prefer to hire a student who had done the practice on a real customer, rather then just the kid next to them in class. I personally think the students should get paid and not be paying. But that's just how it is. So if I wanted to get into massage I know I'd need to do that to be a competitive employee at the end of my training. So to relate that to PFT, if people are doing it, can you really blame the pilot who wants to spend the extra money to pay for the extra training? Unless the companies all stopped doing it, there will always be someone who wants to be a pilot badly enough that he will pay for the extra training, so that encourages more pilots to do it as well because now they need to be in the same league. Like I said, I don't agree with the companies that are doing this, and I do worry about how far it will go...what if eventually Delta is willing to let people pay them to fly for them with the insinuation that they might have a job after a while? I am sure it won't go THAT far...but you never know. However, in the mean time, I don't blame pilots that are deciding to go to PFT's in order to gain that extra experience.

 

[powerlifter]

[ QUOTE ]
Fortunately powerlifter, I've already paid my dues and don't need to pay for anything. The only things I've ever paid for in this business were my certificates and ratings. This whole thing about "displacing better-qualified pilots"......what's that all about? These individuals are being hired based on recommendation of a current employee. Someone the company knows and trusts to be the "better-qualified" pilot they were looking for. Besides, we already discussed that everyone has to go through the same process. If you get in the sim and suck or fail IOE, then you're out! Then there is another slot for the "better-qualified" pilot to have a shot. You're not making any sense at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you misunderstood my rhetorical question. I asked "why not PFT?" because you give the impression that you're willing to displace better-qualified pilots in an effort to get the job. You claimed that refusing to have a resume walked-in on prinicple is unrealistic. If refusing to unfairly compete with other pilots is an unrealistic principle, then what's stopping everyone from going the PFT route? That was my point. The fact that you've paid your dues isn't relevant, and certainly doesn't justify unfair competition.

Just to be clear .. by "unfair competition", I mean competition in which the best-qualified applicants aren't hired.

So what's the deal with "displacing better pilots" and "unfairly competing"? By having an inside connection walk your resume in, you're basically saying: "The competition is too stiff for me to get this job without a boost." If your qualifications were good enough to get the job w/o the walk-in, then why have it walked-in? The bottom line is that you're using a personal connection to cut better qualified applicants out of the loop. Again, if you're the best applicant, there's no need for a walk-in.

You say that the recommendation is coming from a current employee. Saying that a walk-in = a recommendation is a big leap of faith. How many pilots who walk-in resumes can truly attest to the piloting skills of the applicant? I'd wager that the majority of walk-ins are more of a "This guy's a friend/relative of mine, good guy/gal. See what you can do". Besides, wouldn't the contents of a resume be a better indicator of a pilot's skill, rather than some anecdotal evidence presented by a friend/relative? The bottom line is that in order to be fair, employees should stay out of the hiring process and let the resumes do the talking, not the good-ol'-boy system.

Your last point is that regardless of how qualified an applicant is, they must pass the checkride, IOE, etc. This is true, but you've forgotten that IF you pass with flying colors (and the vast majority of trainees do), THEN you've just cut a better-qualified pilot out of the loop. He was cheated out of a job, because he didn't know the right people!

 

[TheWife]

[ QUOTE ]
How many pilots who walk-in resumes can truly attest to the piloting skills of the applicant

[/ QUOTE ] That is so true for just about any job. My husband has helped many of his friends get various jobs just be being their referral, when they truely did not deserve it. I think it would be great if there was an end to referals. In my opinion a referal means nothing. A resume and interview should be far more valuable then knowing some one in aviation.

 

[pkloop]

Hope this is kinda on topic but does anybody know what the percentage of pilots who attend the big schools vs the number that go to FBO's get hired by the airlines?