How does your school handle check ride priority

CoffeeIcePapers · Apr 22, 2009

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ontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><style>  </style> It is hard to book an airplane for a checkride.

We use one examiner that takes about an hour to do the paper work and oral exam for a private checkride, and we have another one that takes 3-4 hours. Even then, there is some variance depending on how well the student is doing, etc...

There is even more variance for the flight portion. Some examiners will go longer distances than others on checkrides, some will make them do every maneuver in the PTS, some will do the bare minimum. Some will allow the student a couple of tries based on their discretion, others will not. There could be delays at the airport, blah blah blah.

Sorry that you got bumped. When you finish your trianing, you will be glad checkrides have priority when you are in the hot seat.

juan valdez · Apr 22, 2009

Thanks to everyone for your replies. I guess I am working myself up over it more than I should. It's just frustrating obviously, mostly because I'm now another week behind schedule. Oh well.

Anyone have an answer for the GPS question?
I see BTAcola's response of

<TABLE class=tborder style="BORDER-TOP-WIDTH: 0px" cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=6 width="100%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR title="Post 1158768" vAlign=top><TD class=alt1>ya it has to be current for the ride, however, why rain down on the guys parade if the DE says its ok its ok. I know as far as the PTS for Instrument says.. it has to be current in IFR flight conditions during approach mode only. It can be expired for enroute. </TD></TR><TR><TD class=thead colSpan=2></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

But that's kind of my question. I mean is it actual IFR only it needs to be current or even if just shooting a practice approach. As far as the DE saying it's ok, I'm not asking about that. I mean if its illegal it's illegal. The AIM only says IFR which to me does not mean IMC, but if you are doing IFR procedures. Or is that wrong? Also this thing isn't just a week or two out, its years. There's an airport on the far west of Houston class B that isn't even on there. I would have to imagine that alot of stuff has changed for IFR procedures in the same timeframe as well.
I'm not trying to rain on his parade, I'm asking more because I am curious and have been about it ever since I started flying here. The other places I've flwon have always been updated, is it expensive to update the database?

braunpilot · Apr 22, 2009

juan valdez said:
Thanks to everyone for your replies. I guess I am working myself up over it more than I should. It's just frustrating obviously, mostly because I'm now another week behind schedule. Oh well.

Anyone have an answer for the GPS question?
I see BTAcola's response of
But that's kind of my question. I mean is it actual IFR only it needs to be current or even if just shooting a practice approach. As far as the DE saying it's ok, I'm not asking about that. I mean if its illegal it's illegal. The AIM only says IFR which to me does not mean IMC, but if you are doing IFR procedures. Or is that wrong? Also this thing isn't just a week or two out, its years. There's an airport on the far west of Houston class B that isn't even on there. I would have to imagine that alot of stuff has changed for IFR procedures in the same timeframe as well.
I'm not trying to rain on his parade, I'm asking more because I am curious and have been about it ever since I started flying here. The other places I've flwon have always been updated, is it expensive to update the database?

The cost to update a GNS 430 the last time that I checked was over $700. As far as the database question yes, the GPS database does have to be current if you are planning on filing /G. If you are VFR and you are going to stay VFR then no, however on the IR checkride you do have to have a current database because the DPE is supposed to test you on all available equipment. Good luck, and I hope that you training goes much smoother now.

Here is a previous thread about GPS database currency.
http://forums.jetcareers.com/technical-talk/84527-approach-question.html

KSCessnaDriver · Apr 22, 2009

braunpilot said:
The cost to update a GNS 430 the last time that I checked was over $700. As far as the database question yes, the GPS database does have to be current if you are planning on filing /G. If you are VFR and you are going to stay VFR then no, however on the IR checkride you do have to have a current database because the DPE is supposed to test you on all available equipment

So, just put an "Inop" sticker on the device and either turn it off or pull the breaker? Wouldn't that be an acceptable alternative to updating the database?

juan valdez · Apr 22, 2009

KSCessnaDriver said:
So, just put an "Inop" sticker on the device and either turn it off or pull the breaker? Wouldn't that be an acceptable alternative to updating the database?

Possibly. But the whole reason I got bumped from the original plane was for the GPS so they could do approaches.
Thanks for the link bp.

cool92092 · Apr 22, 2009

TGatch said:
I have no problem with paying it forward, the problem is, what makes you think your checkride is more important than whatever I have the plane scheduled for? What if I was doing an Angel flight, and now somebody won't get to the hospital in time, because you might not be as "Sharp" a day or a week later. My bad, but I'm pretty sure your checkride isn't more important than a life.

It's really commendable that you would be doing an Angel Flight however these are not Air Ambulance Flights and don't get a life guard callsign so I don't agree with the sensationalism that you depicted in your post. ‘More important than a life’, that’s just apples and amoebas. The discussion is really about one flight student getting priority over another flight student at a flight school. Read Straw Man

braunpilot · Apr 22, 2009

KSCessnaDriver said:
So, just put an "Inop" sticker on the device and either turn it off or pull the breaker? Wouldn't that be an acceptable alternative to updating the database?

You can do that but if you need the radios on GNS430 then you are screwed. There is no way for an A&P to INOP just the GPS while allowing the COMM/NAV to function. Either the whole unit is INOP, the database is not current, or the database gets updated.

rd757 · Apr 22, 2009

cool92092 said:
It's really commendable that you would be doing an Angel Flight however these are not Air Ambulance Flights and don't get a life guard callsign so I don't agree with the sensationalism that you depicted in your post. ‘More important than a life’, that’s just apples and amoebas. The discussion is really about one flight student getting priority over another flight student at a flight school. Read Straw Man

Thank you, that's what I was trying to get at, but couldn't think of a way to phrase it.

RD

minitour · Apr 22, 2009

juan valdez said:
Also the GPS database is expired which I read to mean you can't use for IFR nav even if in VFR conditions. Anyone care to elaborate on that for me if you have a reference. I looked in the AIM and my instructor and I are reading it differentely I guess (guy I got bumped for is on his IFR checkride today).

1) You do not need a current GPS database to operate /G. Not sure why people seem to think you do.
2) You do need a current GPS database to fly GPS procedures.
3) You don't need a current GPS database for a practical test.
4) The reference is AIM 1-1-19 (Check table 1-1-6 for clarification. Look at the footnotes. Specifically the one that says [SIZE=-2]<sup>2</sup>[/SIZE]Requires verification of data for correctness if database is expired.)

-mini

gomntwins · Apr 22, 2009

juan valdez said:
Possibly. But the whole reason I got bumped from the original plane was for the GPS so they could do approaches.
Thanks for the link bp.

Usually, most places just put a "GPS for VFR use only" sticker somewhere in plain sight close to the GPS. I don't have my regs around and don't feel like searching the FAA website for something to back me up on the legality of it, but I've seen those stickers plenty and know up here the feds don't mind seeing them. As far as shooting approaches using an experied database, as long as you're not on an IFR flight plan filed /G or using the GPS to shoot approaches in IMC you can shoot as many approaches as you want with an expired database with a safety pilot/instructor/examiner along. For a checkride, as long as the examiner agrees to it, it's not a problem. The plane will likely need to be IFR certified but as long as you can file something other than /g it's still legal to file and fly. Chances are you'll have to cancel IFR at some point anyway, just don't let the exaiminer talk you into shooting a GPS approach while flying IFR. Cancel first.

As far as school policy goes. That's pretty standard from my experience. There are actually a quite a few reasons for it. 1) give the student the best possible shot to pass their checkride on the first attempt. This isn't so much about flying skills as much as being in a good mental state. Students tend to psych themselves up for checkrides pretty good. They get themselves into a great mental state that helps keep them sharp for a ride. 2) An exaiminer is a private contractor, try to keep them happy. A lot of examiners give checkrides and do so as their primary source of income. They aren't going to be happy if they get canceled on at the last minute a lot. They know it will happen... airplanes break, etc. But, if it's avoidable to cancel on them, avoid it. They need to make money like the rest of us. A happy examiner helps to lead to a happy student. 3) combine the last 2 and pass rate should go up a bit. That's good for school marketing.

The bottom line on the policy though: it's a policy and you can agree with it or disagree, it doesn't matter, but it's doubtful you will change it. A private company can make policies like this and stick to them, it's that simple. At least this policy makes a bit more sense than making your students wear an airline uniform to pay to fly a 172.

juan valdez · Apr 22, 2009

minitour said:
2) You do need a current GPS database to fly GPS procedures.

-mini

That's what I'm asking about. Even if VMC though or not?

gomntwins said:
Usually, most places just put a "GPS for VFR use only" sticker somewhere in plain sight close to the GPS. I don't have my regs around and don't feel like searching the FAA website for something to back me up on the legality of it, but I've seen those stickers plenty and know up here the feds don't mind seeing them. As far as shooting approaches using an experied database, as long as you're not on an IFR flight plan filed /G or using the GPS to shoot approaches in IMC you can shoot as many approaches as you want with an expired database with a safety pilot/instructor/examiner along. For a checkride, as long as the examiner agrees to it, it's not a problem. The plane will likely need to be IFR certified but as long as you can file something other than /g it's still legal to file and fly. Chances are you'll have to cancel IFR at some point anyway, just don't let the exaiminer talk you into shooting a GPS approach while flying IFR. Cancel first.

As far as school policy goes. That's pretty standard from my experience. There are actually a quite a few reasons for it. 1) give the student the best possible shot to pass their checkride on the first attempt. This isn't so much about flying skills as much as being in a good mental state. Students tend to psych themselves up for checkrides pretty good. They get themselves into a great mental state that helps keep them sharp for a ride. 2) An exaiminer is a private contractor, try to keep them happy. A lot of examiners give checkrides and do so as their primary source of income. They aren't going to be happy if they get canceled on at the last minute a lot. They know it will happen... airplanes break, etc. But, if it's avoidable to cancel on them, avoid it. They need to make money like the rest of us. A happy examiner helps to lead to a happy student. 3) combine the last 2 and pass rate should go up a bit. That's good for school marketing.

The bottom line on the policy though: it's a policy and you can agree with it or disagree, it doesn't matter, but it's doubtful you will change it. A private company can make policies like this and stick to them, it's that simple. At least this policy makes a bit more sense than making your students wear an airline uniform to pay to fly a 172.

I see what youre saying about safety pilot but it doesnt specify in the AIM about IFR flight plan, just IFR, which to me means shooting an approach.
I guess I have to agree with the policy because as you say it won't change. I just had never heard of this, I guess mostly bc I had never come across it before in training. It just really annoys me to be set abck so much time now. This is the second time, and while I had a bird each time to roll to, each time it has not worked out and I've lost out on training. Which in turn makes me take longer to get to my checkride, affects my proficiency etc.

BTAcola · Apr 22, 2009

juan valdez said:
That's what I'm asking about. Even if VMC though or not?

I see what youre saying about safety pilot but it doesnt specify in the AIM about IFR flight plan, just IFR, which to me means shooting an approach.
I guess I have to agree with the policy because as you say it won't change. I just had never heard of this, I guess mostly bc I had never come across it before in training. It just really annoys me to be set abck so much time now. This is the second time, and while I had a bird each time to roll to, each time it has not worked out and I've lost out on training. Which in turn makes me take longer to get to my checkride, affects my proficiency etc.

JAUN.. wow.. who cares get over it. You do not need a current GPS for enroute GPS mode, in IFR (CLOUDS) or VFR(NOT IN CLOUDS) Conditions. 1-1-19 AIM, read it more.. IFR means IFR... not IFR flight plan in VMC.. it means IFR. Shooting an approach in VFR, the GPS is for supplemental guidance only BUT CAN NOT BE USED for actual IFR conditions.

Secondly if your school is that busy, It sounds like you need to schedule more flights futher in advance and do some planning in advance to get it done and fly a few times a week if you are "that behind" in your training. Flying/scheduling by the seat of your pants doesnt work well in this industry as far as planning goes.

Its up to the DE to say yes or no to doing the flight with whatever equipment is onboard. If you don't have an ADF in the airplane, you are not required to do a NDB approach, but you are still responsible for knowing HOW TO DO THE APPROACH, hence the oral exam before you fly. The rating will let that person fly an NDB approach without EVER demonstrating it in the aircraft. IT works the same for the GPS, but since the GPS is pretty much the current and future way of flying, shooting a GPS approach in the plane, weather its a current database or not seems very VITAL to your career as GPS is only getting more used, and NDBS are getting phased out. That make sense?. If you are equiped with a GPS, and it is OUTDATED... if the airplane is equiped you are required to demonstrate the approach, VFR conditions ONLY since it is not approved for IFR approach mode, only IFR enroute. Now... as I stated before, the PTS requires it to be a current database, (SO as to why this aircraft was used and the other one was not, was because as you said the other one didnt have a GPS and it sounds like the Examiner wanted to shoot a GPS approach, regardless of weather or not the GPS was up to date.

As someone else said thats like 500-700 bucks to update them, and right now, i know most places dont have the funds to do stuff like that. Sounds like you should talk to your cfi... and write it out in detail what your are upset about which we already know. Third, if the CFI is the Chief Pilot/Owner, it wont work, but talk to them about it, and let them know that a GPS that is that far out of date, in your flight environment, is definatly a safety of flight issue and that you refuse to file IFR with those planes, until it is fixed.

Hope this helps and I didnt make you too upset. Id talk to your instructor in person about how you strong you feel about beind displaced, and both of you talk with the Chief Pilot or owner or Dispatcher or whoever to have better communication to help make sure that your "training takes precedence over someone elses".

Enjoy, i await a response....

minitour · Apr 22, 2009

juan valdez said:
That's what I'm asking about. Even if VMC though or not?

On an IFR clearance? "Cleared GPS 12 Approach"? Yes

When VFR doing practice approaches? "Maintain VFR Practice approach approved" No.

It's an IFR vs. VFR thing, not a VMC vs IMC thing. If you're IFR and you want to fly an approach using the GPS, you need to have a current database. If you just want to fly enroute, no you don't.

Example:
"Proceed direct MYFIX join V4 on course" - you can do that w/o a current data card. You just have to verify the fixes. That's an enroute operation.

Flying an approach that says "DME Required" using the GPS in lieu of DME, you'd need a current data card or stay VFR. That's an approach operation.

Either way, you are still GPS equipped and can file /G.

-mini

juan valdez · Apr 22, 2009

BTAcola said:
JAUN.. wow.. who cares get over it.

Secondly if your school is that busy, It sounds like you need to schedule more flights futher in advance and do some planning in advance to get it done and fly a few times a week if you are "that behind" in your training. Flying/scheduling by the seat of your pants doesnt work well in this industry as far as planning goes.

Enjoy, i await a response....

Not sure why you think I am upset over the GPS. I have been wondering about the GPS thing since i started flying at this school back in Feb. Twice I have gotten bumped for the GPS so I finally looked it up in the AIM and am confused. As simple as that. Let's pretend that the checkride was never brought up. I meant to bring it up on here last week after my last x country but didn't.

Trust me, if I could schedule myself out weeks I would. Maybe you have heard about this crazy phenomenon called weather. Can't control that. Maybe you have heard about this other crazy phenomenon called stage checks. Flying 141 I can't schedule beyond what stage I am in until I finsih the one I'm working on. I am not going to schedule a flight next week if I am waiting on a stage check this week bc you never know what might happen: weather comes in unexpectedly, plane goes down for inspection/mx, stage check cfi gets sick etc.
Now if it was going to be a dual flight anyway then yes I could MAYBE schedule out since I could just roll my regular cfi over if needed, if he was available. Also, this school does not use the 172's as primary trainers. Out of a dozen planes only 2 are cessna's. They usually are not this busy with them, but I guess with the weather being nice the last few days they are booking up. Plus I'm scheduling an 8 hr block. Tues I got home and immediately looked when I could go back up and both 172's are booked not solid, but not a day with 8 hrs available til monday.
Oh lastly, maybe you have heard about a little thing called a job. Kind of hard to schedule too far out since a work schedule comes out on wed for that coming sun-sat.

BTAcola · Apr 22, 2009

juan valdez said:
Not sure why you think I am upset over the GPS. I have been wondering about the GPS thing since i started flying at this school back in Feb. Twice I have gotten bumped for the GPS so I finally looked it up in the AIM and am confused. As simple as that. Let's pretend that the checkride was never brought up. I meant to bring it up on here last week after my last x country but didn't.

Trust me, if I could schedule myself out weeks I would. Maybe you have heard about this crazy phenomenon called weather. Can't control that. Maybe you have heard about this other crazy phenomenon called stage checks. Flying 141 I can't schedule beyond what stage I am in until I finsih the one I'm working on. I am not going to schedule a flight next week if I am waiting on a stage check this week bc you never know what might happen: weather comes in unexpectedly, plane goes down for inspection/mx, stage check cfi gets sick etc.
Now if it was going to be a dual flight anyway then yes I could MAYBE schedule out since I could just roll my regular cfi over if needed, if he was available. Also, this school does not use the 172's as primary trainers. Out of a dozen planes only 2 are cessna's. They usually are not this busy with them, but I guess with the weather being nice the last few days they are booking up. Plus I'm scheduling an 8 hr block. Tues I got home and immediately looked when I could go back up and both 172's are booked not solid, but not a day with 8 hrs available til monday.
Oh lastly, maybe you have heard about a little thing called a job. Kind of hard to schedule too far out since a work schedule comes out on wed for that coming sun-sat.

I stand corrected!!!! :banghead: Please, allow me to call this school of yours and let them know who you really are, because obviously they don't know what celebrity they are dealing with and the importance of you and how nothing can ever be your fault. I stand corrected!!!

As for the weather- you can still book a flight, and another one, and another one.

As for the stage- you did get that right, you can stay within the stage, however you can still book flights for the next stage, and get your CFI/scheduler to schedule your stage check if you are that close to the end of your stage

A job- trust me... no matter what job you have done, a pissing match of whose job is harder or more stressful, wont work on here, nor does it need to be done. A schedule is a schedule, and if you want this AVIATION CAREER bad enough, you would have quit complaining about your flight being bumped twice and moved on and done something about it!

I think I know you- You are that guy on Southwest flight XXX from XXX to XXX... when its delayed, gets up and complains about how your not late for your job so why are the pilots late for theirs, or why is this airplane broken, or why is this guy next to me having a heart attack!! ME ME ME ME ME, and Im sick of people with that attitude, I HATE PEOPLE LIKE THAT.. I SHOULD KNOW. i used to be one of those people...think of others for once and how your actions/words affect others.

There im done- off my soapbox! RANT ON.... :rawk:

juan valdez · Apr 22, 2009

BTAcola said:
I think I know you- You are that guy on Southwest flight XXX from XXX to XXX... when its delayed, gets up and complains about how your not late for your job so why are the pilots late for theirs, or why is this airplane broken, or why is this guy next to me having a heart attack!! ME ME ME ME ME, and Im sick of people with that attitude, I HATE PEOPLE LIKE THAT.. I SHOULD KNOW. i used to be one of those people...think of others for once and how your actions/words affect others.

There im done- off my soapbox! RANT ON.... :rawk:

You know what they say about assuming...

I wish I was as cool as you

BTAcola · Apr 22, 2009

juan valdez said:
You know what they say about assuming...

I wish I was as cool as you

Thanks! :yeahthat:

Sisson2011 · Apr 22, 2009

I definitely say give the check ride priority, even if someone gets bumped. I have my CFI check ride coming up next week. I would be pissed if I get all ready that day and then come to find out no airplane. I'm stressed out as it is and losing sleep, and it's still 5 days away. However, I agree the flight school should let u know about the scheduling conflict that minute it is changed. But, give it to the check ride, they're already in a world of hurt.

Done procrastinating, back to studying

SoonerAv8r · Apr 22, 2009

juan valdez said:
I was supposed to fly today to New Orleans (KNEW) and am limited to only flying the 172's that the school has bc of the VA.
Anyway I had one scheduled but got bumped from it yesterday, well I found out yesterday as that was when I spke with my instuctor. No big deal I said, the kid needed the one with the GPS so I got rolled to the other one. I guess back to basic VOR nav for me!
Anyway I go to the airport today and wait for over half an hour. The bird I got rolled to is still not there, meanwhile the original one I scheduled taxiis off and flies away. Over an hour later I get a call saying the plane is back and wondering if I still want to go. By this time it's too late as I won't be back on time for the next guy and am pissed from the whole situation.
My instructor tells me this is school policy. This is the 5th place I've trained at and maybe I've just never come across this before but I have never heard the "check ride guy gets priority". Now I can't even re schedule til next monday because of the length of the flight and prior reservations already made.
Anyway does your school have this checkride priority policy?
Also the GPS database is expired which I read to mean you can't use for IFR nav even if in VFR conditions. Anyone care to elaborate on that for me if you have a reference. I looked in the AIM and my instructor and I are reading it differentely I guess (guy I got bumped for is on his IFR checkride today).

Around our airport its just one of those unwritten rules. People even volunteer to give up their scheduled block to accommodate someones checkride. When I was at ATP checkrides were an absolute proirity.

JustinA · Apr 22, 2009

cencal83406 said:
Ladies and Gentlemen, I submit to you, the most constructive response of the day!!!

Oh and to be constructive to the English language, I suggest that you consider using punctuation to its fullest extent (for example, ending your sentence with a period), and perhaps give capitalization a thought.

Why do people on forums love to correct the grammar on post not made by them? Is it because they want to be an english teacher or what??

No offense here, just asking.

How does your school handle check ride priority

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