How do you get into management?

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QuietStorm - you're going to find a lot of anti-management hype on this board, mostly from people who have NEVER worked for the FAA and frankly have no foundation to criticize anything or anyone. Are there bad managers in the FAA? Probably. Are there good ones? Definitely. Every manager I have spoken with in the FAA has been nothing but great and helpful. Even when they couldn't help me out, I understood why. My respect of you has dropped to a level I didn't even know I had :(

That being said, you probably should not be shopping for management level jobs until you've at least checked out at your first facility, unless you're looking for positions outside of the ATO.
 
Oh I have plenty of thoughts on this...lets see; have no clue of the operation, be a minority (sorry if it hurts but I have seen soooo many qualified people be passed up for those that were not even half a qualified because of race or gender)...

oh..ok, the basic premise behind your post is that no minority you've ever worked with in 20+ years has been competent. i don't think i'm twisting your words, this seems like a fair summation of your argument.

so the moderator of this forum is now throwing racial firebombs. i'm a minority. Am I already tagged as having zero chance at competence in ATC work? If that's the case should I just give it up? Maybe my genetic lack of competence will allow me to bump around blindly yet still move forward, eventually bypassing the horde and landing a cushy management slot?

or maybe I apply for the job with a decent ATSAT score and a resume of merit and take it from there.

what's your advice here ATLTRACON? help me out, with some "brutal honesty." i'm just a minority OTS.
 
eventually bypassing the horde and landing a cushy management slot?

Hate to burst your bubble, but in a bargaining unit environment, management is not a "cushy" job. You have zero power (as in you must plan every word and action acording to the contract, the contract says how you're allowed to do your job) but still are excpected to deliver results, complete set up for failure situation.

Your primary responsibilities will be responding to grievances and making sure everyone is demoralized equally, because your only satisfaction after having mounds of formal written complaints against you is to retaliate by holding all bargaining unit employees to every minute detail set forth in the contract (or IWR). BUT...make sure you are able to write someone up in a certain time frame or it all falls off and you have to start all over again, like the previous incidents never happened. It's a lose, lose situation.

I am not saying Unions are bad or Management is bad... it's just a sucky situation on both ends.

**DISCLAIMER: My comments are not based on any experience in ATO or the FAA, they are based on past experiences in Bargaining Unit environments and the environments differ from unit to unit.
 
oh..ok, the basic premise behind your post is that no minority you've ever worked with in 20+ years has been competent. i don't think i'm twisting your words, this seems like a fair summation of your argument.

so the moderator of this forum is now throwing racial firebombs. i'm a minority. Am I already tagged as having zero chance at competence in ATC work? If that's the case should I just give it up? Maybe my genetic lack of competence will allow me to bump around blindly yet still move forward, eventually bypassing the horde and landing a cushy management slot?

or maybe I apply for the job with a decent ATSAT score and a resume of merit and take it from there.

what's your advice here ATLTRACON? help me out, with some "brutal honesty." i'm just a minority OTS.

No one one is saying that minorities aren't equal to anyone else, in every aspect, but we all know that minorities do get certain favortism shown. I am one who believes that it belittles a person to show them favoritism in any situation, just because of their gender or origin. It is like saying we know that you can't get it on your own, so here's a little help. Not that anyone wants my opinion, but i believe everyone should be given the same chance at any oppurtunity, whoever is the most qualified gets the position, regardless of any other aspect.
 
oh..ok, the basic premise behind your post is that no minority you've ever worked with in 20+ years has been competent. i don't think i'm twisting your words, this seems like a fair summation of your argument.

so the moderator of this forum is now throwing racial firebombs. i'm a minority. Am I already tagged as having zero chance at competence in ATC work? If that's the case should I just give it up? Maybe my genetic lack of competence will allow me to bump around blindly yet still move forward, eventually bypassing the horde and landing a cushy management slot?

or maybe I apply for the job with a decent ATSAT score and a resume of merit and take it from there.

what's your advice here ATLTRACON? help me out, with some "brutal honesty." i'm just a minority OTS.


I think you are being over-sensitive here, and you are talking to the queen of over-sensitiveness! The way I read it, he was not saying minorities are bad ATCS. My understanding is this is about affirmitative action; he was saying since the FAA is govt. they have to follow affirmative action or the "reverse-discrimination law".

I honestly can't seen ATLTRACON saying minorities aren't qualified. I will let him explain but I think he was saying people with more experience and better qualifications are being turned down for numbers to look good.

If you are okay with being promoted to a job you don't deserve just because of your skin color/sex not qualifications then that goes against what you are fighting above.

Cool down and go back and read it again with a more open mind.
 
[modhat] taking my moderator hat off
oh..ok, the basic premise behind your post is that no minority you've ever worked with in 20+ years has been competent No, that's not my premise at all. My point was, I have seen too many times in my 23+ ATC Level 12 career people, who were not qualified to lead/manage, get promoted because of other things besides competence. IE, sexual harassment suits...make it go away, make 'em a stupervisor, EEOC complaints...make 'em a stupe and it'll be dropped, those types of things happen EVERY SINGLE DAY in the wonderful FFA, don't believe me, wait and see. You, without having been where I am/have stood have any idea what I am talking about, but you will soon enough. It's not about black/white/purple/whatever...if you can actually do the job I don't care what sex you are or what color you are...but you better damn well know what you are talking about when I am supposed to follow your lead and your lead only got you the job because the FFA wanted a suit dropped.. i don't think i'm twisting your words, this seems like a fair summation of your argument.

so the moderator of this forum is now throwing racial firebombs. i'm a minority. Am I already tagged as having zero chance at competence in ATC work not as far as I'm concerned? If that's the case should I just give it up? Maybe my genetic lack of competence will allow me to bump around blindly yet still move forward, eventually bypassing the horde and landing a cushy management slot?

or maybe I apply for the job with a decent ATSAT score and a resume of merit and take it from there.

what's your advice here ATLTRACON? help me out, with some "brutal honesty." i'm just a minority OTS.
[/modhat]

Brutal enough
 
oh..ok, the basic premise behind your post is that no minority you've ever worked with in 20+ years has been competent. i don't think i'm twisting your words, this seems like a fair summation of your argument.

so the moderator of this forum is now throwing racial firebombs. i'm a minority. Am I already tagged as having zero chance at competence in ATC work? If that's the case should I just give it up? Maybe my genetic lack of competence will allow me to bump around blindly yet still move forward, eventually bypassing the horde and landing a cushy management slot?

or maybe I apply for the job with a decent ATSAT score and a resume of merit and take it from there.

what's your advice here ATLTRACON? help me out, with some "brutal honesty." i'm just a minority OTS.

I don't think ATLTRACON has made moderator status quite yet Actually I have, but i feel he is getting very close. And no one one is saying that minorities aren't equal to anyone else, in every aspect, but we all know that minorities do get certain favortism shown. I am one who believes that it belittles a person to show them favoritism in any situation, just because of their gender or origin. It is like saying we know that you can't get it on your own, so here's a little help. Not that anyone wants my opinion, but i believe everyone should be given the same chance at any oppurtunity, whoever is the most qualified gets the position, regardless of any other aspect.
 
Dang, you caught me before i could change it, i am guessing this happened recently, or i am just not as observant as i thought.
 
LoL duly noted. I saw a few announcements looking for supervisors and what not and other management positions? So is that job for the birds or what? Too many hours figuring out your fantasy baseball trades while "your" controllers go 2.5 hours on position, way too much stress It is stressful watching someone else work, will i turn into the world's biggest prick The FFA will send you for your lobotomy at Palm Coast in FL where you will be told that you can no longer have an original thought of your own???
 
It is a sad day when nobody can even mention a minority in this country without someone getting all up in arms and offended about it when nothing derrogatory was even said.

Piker, If you can't get any tougher than this I don't see you lasting a year in the FAA with how we are all being told they treat their employees.
 
oh..ok, the basic premise behind your post is that no minority you've ever worked with in 20+ years has been competent. i don't think i'm twisting your words, this seems like a fair summation of your argument.

so the moderator of this forum is now throwing racial firebombs. i'm a minority. Am I already tagged as having zero chance at competence in ATC work? If that's the case should I just give it up? Maybe my genetic lack of competence will allow me to bump around blindly yet still move forward, eventually bypassing the horde and landing a cushy management slot?

or maybe I apply for the job with a decent ATSAT score and a resume of merit and take it from there.

what's your advice here ATLTRACON? help me out, with some "brutal honesty." i'm just a minority OTS.

I am going to take a guess here and say that you are not a Controller, from some the things you say and since you would know that your ATSAT score doesn't mean anything when trying to become a sup, not sure it mean anything after your hired.

So with that thought, I will say it will not matter if you black, red, blue, green or any other color, you are getting ahead of yourself. 1st become a controller and then spend some time in the job and come back and tell us what you find out.
 
The sad fact is that MANY employers have a sort of unspoken "quota" regarding hiring minorities. Think of it this way, one company gets 1000 apps for 10 certain positions, and the only qualified applicants it finds are nothing but 10 white males, 25-35yr old. They hire just them. Now all the minorities are blowing brownie bites because of apparent racial profiling, regardless of their lack of education/experience/qualification/etc.

Either way, it's a disaster. There IS favoritism; there IS racism, and they're running rampant in the workforce, and its mostly state/federal enforcement. You can try to pick it apart as much as you want, but it happens.

Alot of the managers in my workplace are there simply because others didn't want them screwing up the real work all of the qualified workers are trying to do.
 
Either way, it's a disaster. There IS favoritism; there IS racism, and they're running rampant in the workforce, and its mostly state/federal enforcement. You can try to pick it apart as much as you want, but it happens.
Wow, this thread is going too far... maybe it should be shut down.

I know many of you dislike affirmative action, but it's also nice to work in a diverse workforce, and many minorities just haven't had some of the same opportunities as others. However I can agree that some companies/govts. enact these programs in an offensive manner.
 
Wow, this thread is going too far... maybe it should be shut down.

I know many of you dislike affirmative action, but it's also nice to work in a diverse workforce, and many minorities just haven't had some of the same opportunities as others. However I can agree that some companies/govts. enact these programs in an offensive manner.



McCain '08 against affirmative action....Working in a diverse workforce is nice when everyone is held to the same standards. "Minorities just haven't had some of opportunities as others", please it is all about the effort the individual is willing to put in....the sad fact is most minorities are not willing to work as hard as others when it comes to moving up the economic ladder.... they think everything should be handed to them on a silver platter. I have numerous friends of all races that have exceeded in the workforce.
 
....the sad fact is most minorities are not willing to work as hard as others when it comes to moving up the economic ladder.... they think everything should be handed to them on a silver platter.

Wow, that is a blanket statement.
 
[modhat] can we keep on track with the thread title please....otherwise it will have to be moved and/or closed because it no longer pertains to anything ATC related. Thanks [/modhat]
 
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