How close is too close for pilots

[Kingpong12]

I still get "uncomfortable" when doing parallel approaches with two merging aircraft at DEN... 17R/16L or 35R/35L, it doesn't take much wind to get off course.

I don't deal too much with the terminal environment, but I have always wondered how pilots feel when doing parallel dual or triple approaches or when they're on short final watching an aircraft in position just starting they're takeoff roll on the same or intersecting runway.

 

[NovemberEcho]

FWIW, the VAST majority of my TA/RA situations are from GA aircraft on the weekends,

the vast majority of mine are all legally separated too and I’m like da fuq? And a solid 20% of the RA’s happen when you’re already a mile past the other aircraft.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

the autopilot doesn’t respond to RAs and it doesnt disconnect.

a pilot has to intervene and respond by disconnecting the autopilot and maneuvering to put the aircraft vertical speed in the green arc.

you don’t use autopilot for RAs because the autopilot doesn’t have any sense of urgency or any sense of self preservation. It doesn’t understand you need to maneuver now. It has all sorts of response curves to ensure the airplane remains inside the envelope and flies smoothly (though that‘s dubious)

Depends on the airplane. If I’m not mistaken, I think the newer airbuses will respond to TCAS RAs. @BobDDuck?

 

[BobDDuck]

Depends on the airplane. If I’m not mistaken, I think the newer airbuses will respond to TCAS RAs. @BobDDuck?

TCAS blue...and then the magic happens.

 

[BobDDuck]

the vast majority of mine are all legally separated too and I’m like da fuq? And a solid 20% of the RA’s happen when you’re already a mile past the other aircraft.

Most of that is closure rates. There may be legal separation assigned but if one airplane is climbing to get there it can trigger.

By the time we get around to telling atc that we had an RA ot probably is a ways behind us.

 

[NovemberEcho]

Most of that is closure rates. There may be legal separation assigned but if one airplane is climbing to get there it can trigger.

By the time we get around to telling atc that we had an RA ot probably is a ways behind us.

nah it happens with 500’ sep when both planes are level. I guess tcas II has a 600’ bubble. And the ones I was talking about where the traffic is already a mile behind is when I see the climb/descend, not when they tell me about it.

 

[BobDDuck]

nah it happens with 500’ sep when both planes are level. I guess tcas II has a 600’ bubble. And the ones I was talking about where the traffic is already a mile behind is when I see the climb/descend, not when they tell me about it.

I'm pretty sure it's 500 for the trigger but sometimes 500 isn't exactly 500 in real life.

 

[AAPalmTree]

You don’t ever have to tell me about someone passing 1,000 above/below in cruise ever if that helps. Within 5 miles at same altitude in cruise will get my attention.

 

[nabbyfan]

You don’t ever have to tell me about someone passing 1,000 above/below in cruise ever if that helps. Within 5 miles at same altitude in cruise will get my attention.

Unfortunately we don't have a choice, its in the book. Its not a huge priority for me unless I have a Super, then its kind of a big deal. Ive seen 2 or 3 pretty serious wake incidents in my airspace with them, including one with a Corporate jet of some type almost rolling and a FA getting injured following a Super by like 25 miles.

I would say 95%+ of all RA's I've seen have been the result of VFR crossing an IFR arrival or Departure with 500 ft separation. Alot of knuckleheads like to depart CMA/OXR VFR and climb eastbound directly into the ROKKR and IRNMN for BUR and LAX. Theres a reason why when you're IFR you dont get that Eastbound turn immediately haha. Almost all of us now try to use 1500' just to avoid having to deal with an RA.

 

[jynxyjoe]

honestly, I hate this. I take it as you thought I should have already called traffic and you’re being snarky.

Did it again today, got a thank you and cleared for the visual. *Shrug* i keep doing it, it keeps working. Idk.

 

[NovemberEcho]

Did it again today, got a thank you and cleared for the visual. *Shrug* i keep doing it, it keeps working. Idk.

well ok, on approach is different. I thought you were talking about while in cruise

 

[gotWXdagain]

I’m good with minimum separation but if it’s converging I appreciate the point out.

 

[skypilot6]

If I can read the tail number then it's a little too close.

 

[greg1016]

My last airport had a resident astronaut who owns a BE35. Didn't matter if he was IFR or VFR, if he spotted another aircraft without being told about it, he was calling the tower when he landed.

I on the other hand hate excessive traffic calls, both as a controller and a pilot. If it's not truly traffic I don't want to hear about it. One time I was flying and my supervisor was the tower controller. He calls traffic on a beech jet inbound while I am departing left crosswind. Now I'm looking for a jet in the downwind that I think is close, when I finally get him in sight he is at least 2 miles in front of me and by the time I crossed his flight path he was turning base

The short story is, it depends on the pilot. The astronaut probably would have wanted that call.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Speaking of RA's when you get one when the autopilot is on, does the autopilot respond to the alert or does the autopilot turn off and the pilot manually responds?

Some of our airplanes are so equipped; we are not allowed to use it, however, as it is only some of the airplanes.

 

[NovemberEcho]

Apparently 600’ vertical and level is too close now. Had a guy on the TEB final at 2000’ take an RA climb for a VFR at 1400’.

 

[DE727UPS]

At TEB wouldn't be 121 but pilots are pretty much trained to follow RA's and ignore you. For sure in 121 that's how it is. We have profiles in the sim with an RA and conflicting ATC instructions. We ignore ATC....

 

[NovemberEcho]

At TEB wouldn't be 121 but pilots are pretty much trained to follow RA's and ignore you. For sure in 121 that's how it is. We have profiles in the sim with an RA and conflicting ATC instructions. We ignore ATC....

yeah I didn’t give instructions or anything like, pretty much just said “oookkkk, well he’s a mile behind and to the left now”. I’m just really tired of having RA’s over legally separated traffic

 

[SteveC]

yeah I didn’t give instructions or anything like, pretty much just said “oookkkk, well he’s a mile behind and to the left now”. I’m just really tired of having RA’s over legally separated traffic

Sorry, but we’re the same as 121 - obey the RA.

If we see the traffic and determine it’s not an issue, are we sure we see the right one? Or if a VFR target +500’ drops his pencil, bends over to pick it up, TCAS is going to see the potential conflict before you or I will.

I’m following the RA.

 

[NovemberEcho]

Sorry, but we’re the same as 121 - obey the RA.

If we see the traffic and determine it’s not an issue, are we sure we see the right one? Or if a VFR target +500’ drops his pencil, bends over to pick it up, TCAS is going to see the potential conflict before you or I will.

I’m following the RA.

not asking you not to. I’m not aggravated with pilots following the RA, I’m aggravated with you getting one in the first place with legal separation