How close is too close for pilots

[Kingpong12]

En route controller guy here.

Question of the day: as a pilot how close are you comfortable with as far as traffic is concerned? (preferably during the cruise phase)

Quick backstory: I've had pilots before that I've vectored behind traffic kinda huff and puff saying "is that traffic 1 o'clock and 5 miles in front of us who you turned us for? Cuz we're clear we'll take on course" while I've had some pilots (in a non vector situation) get snippy and say "we have that traffic 7 miles off our nose in sight" like I let them get too close or was supposed to warn them.

(My separation standard is 5nm en route)

TL;DR: what is your separation expectation as a pilot? Just to "miss"? Or is there a certain mileage?

Love hearing the pilot's perspective, thanks!

 

[Stone Cold]

En route controller guy here.

Question of the day: as a pilot how close are you comfortable with as far as traffic is concerned? (preferably during the cruise phase)

Quick backstory: I've had pilots before that I've vectored behind traffic kinda huff and puff saying "is that traffic 1 o'clock and 5 miles in front of us who you turned us for? Cuz we're clear we'll take on course" while I've had some pilots (in a non vector situation) get snippy and say "we have that traffic 7 miles off our nose in sight" like I let them get too close or was supposed to warn them.

(My separation standard is 5nm en route)

TL;DR: what is your separation expectation as a pilot? Just to "miss"? Or is there a certain mileage?

Love hearing the pilot's perspective, thanks!

Should we guess airlines just using the information provided? Because I totally could. It's all captain and airline dependent.

 

[DE727UPS]

Merging targets and 500 feet is fine with me

 

[Kingpong12]

Should we guess airlines just using the information provided? Because I totally could. It's all captain and airline dependent.

Well funnily enough a couple of times it's been pilots from the same airline just on either end of the too close/not close enough spectrum. I figured like driving, it would kinda be different depending on the pilot.

 

[Stone Cold]

To answer the question, standard separation is what I like. I don't like surprises. I'll try to save the boss money, but not to the extent to sacrifice safety. I fly long flights, so a minute here or there isn't going to make a difference. Keep me safe please.

 

[Prino]

Merging targets and 500 feet is fine with me

Had too many RA’s and started using 1000’ when I can.

 

[Dphoenix]

I was gonna say, the E175 TCAS system *hated* 500 feet. Just hated it. Would lead to an RA like half the time.

 

[Kingpong12]

Had too many RA’s and started using 1000’ when I can.

I was gonna say, the E175 TCAS system *hated* 500 feet. Just hated it. Would lead to an RA like half the time.

Speaking of RA's when you get one when the autopilot is on, does the autopilot respond to the alert or does the autopilot turn off and the pilot manually responds?

 

[jynxyjoe]

En route controller guy here.

Question of the day: as a pilot how close are you comfortable with as far as traffic is concerned? (preferably during the cruise phase)

Quick backstory: I've had pilots before that I've vectored behind traffic kinda huff and puff saying "is that traffic 1 o'clock and 5 miles in front of us who you turned us for? Cuz we're clear we'll take on course" while I've had some pilots (in a non vector situation) get snippy and say "we have that traffic 7 miles off our nose in sight" like I let them get too close or was supposed to warn them.

(My separation standard is 5nm en route)

TL;DR: what is your separation expectation as a pilot? Just to "miss"? Or is there a certain mileage?

Love hearing the pilot's perspective, thanks!

If i see the traffic I'm guessing you're gonna call out in 30 seconds i just let you know during one of my other radio calls im already doing. I feel like theres a lotta talking on the radio and i just want to go direct and start telling jokes to my other guy again.

 

[NovemberEcho]

If i see the traffic I'm guessing you're gonna call out in 30 seconds i just let you know during one of my other radio calls im already doing.

honestly, I hate this. I take it as you thought I should have already called traffic and you’re being snarky.

 

[jynxyjoe]

honestly, I hate this. I take it as you thought I should have already called traffic and you’re being snarky.

I honestly just can't wait to stop talking to you and pray every day for a complete radio failure in imc after takeoff.

When i call traffic and field i nearly always get a visual afterwards and we can stop this charade where we pretend you're kind is controlling anything .

 

[web265]

Speaking of RA's when you get one when the autopilot is on, does the autopilot respond to the alert or does the autopilot turn off and the pilot manually responds?

I only have experience with three aircraft equipped with this. None of the AP's would automatically fly the RA. To use the AP I guess you could go into an AP climb/descent, it's against SOP and I've never seen it taught anywhere. Not sure if any other types might do this.

In the E170's , our SOP says to temporarily disconnect the autopilot with the TCS (Touch Control Steering) button and fly the RA guidance, then establish appropriate vert/lat flight path to return to assigned altitude and release the TCS, which re-engages the AP.

Think of the TCS as a temporary AP disconnect. (it also syncs the flight director with the current flight attitude)

Edited to clarify...

 

[msmspilot]

Speaking of RA's when you get one when the autopilot is on, does the autopilot respond to the alert or does the autopilot turn off and the pilot manually responds?

CRJ - we're required to disconnect the autopilot and hand fly any RA.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

Just don’t let me hit them or get me in wake turbulence string enough to spill coffee.

 

[Old Pete]

honestly, I hate this. I take it as you thought I should have already called traffic and you’re being snarky.

Once, I said, I’m still here in case you noticed a couple of targets merge. Now that’s snarky

 

[Dphoenix]

I only have experience with three aircraft equipped with this. None of the AP's would automatically fly the RA. To use the AP I guess you could go into an AP climb/descent, it's against SOP and I've never seen it taught anywhere. Not sure if any other types might do this.

In the E170's , our SOP says to temporarily disconnect the autopilot with the TCS (Touch Control Steering) button and fly the RA guidance, then establish appropriate vert/lat flight path to return to assigned altitude and release the TCS, which re-engages the AP.

Think of the TCS as a temporary AP disconnect. (it also syncs the flight director with the current flight attitude)

Edited to clarify...

Compass's SOP was to hand fly the RA in the E170 either with an autopilot disconnect, or with TCS. I never saw anybody use TCS to do it in the real world, nor in a sim event, though. I do like that TCS will try to return where it's supposed to be after the RA, but it's so jerky when it re-engages the AP servos which is why I rarellly used TCS in most in flight situations it would otherwise be useful for. The TCS button was great when vertical speed was engaged though to quickly adjust vertical speed as required.

 

[cmac88]

As another en route guy I try to limit surprises, it seems almost all are happy with that. Descending or climbing I typically always call, or if its going to be 5-7 miles and I haven't turned them so they aren't wondering. All workload permitting of course. As for vfrs I do everything to not set off tcas especially in our low alt sequencing sector where it isn't going to make anything easier. 1000 ft or a small turn so they don't merge works fine. Unless its the guy not talking to anybody doing maneuvers over the crossing fix.

 

[///AMG]

Merging targets and 500 feet is fine with me

I mean, a 500' pass is what we are trying to get in the Navy anyway......anything more is just yielding turning room

 

[woodreau]

Speaking of RA's when you get one when the autopilot is on, does the autopilot respond to the alert or does the autopilot turn off and the pilot manually responds?

the autopilot doesn’t respond to RAs and it doesnt disconnect.

a pilot has to intervene and respond by disconnecting the autopilot and maneuvering to put the aircraft vertical speed in the green arc.

you don’t use autopilot for RAs because the autopilot doesn’t have any sense of urgency or any sense of self preservation. It doesn’t understand you need to maneuver now. It has all sorts of response curves to ensure the airplane remains inside the envelope and flies smoothly (though that‘s dubious)

 

[CFIT99]

4 -121's (3 regionals, 1 major) 1-135 operations (fractional) all had the same procedures. AP off, FD off...comply with RA

I still get "uncomfortable" when doing parallel approaches with two merging aircraft at DEN... 17R/16L or 35R/35L, it doesn't take much wind to get off course.

FWIW, the VAST majority of my TA/RA situations are from GA aircraft on the weekends, especially in Florida