House, Senate pass 1500 rule, Rest rules, and more
- Thread starter Firebird2XC
- Start date
A320_DUDE
Well-Known Member
I really wasn't gonna post anything on this,but since I have my mighty PPL I figured I was qualified to throw in my own .02 
Personally I think 1500hrs is a little bit of an overkill. IMO,3407 would have still happened if this bill was law on that night. This is being done to quiet down the families and traveling public.
Somebody else posted that that the goal for being a professional airline pilot has gotten pushed further out for those up and coming. I agree, those coming up now have to eat a crap sandwich. Get use to the taste...it comes with the industry. If you want the job,you gotta jump through the hoops.
I look at it like this....I have no more desire to be in the 121 world. Too much BS and not enough return on the investment. My goal now is to get 135 mins and go someplace like AirNet,Ameriflight or Mountain Air Cargo and build hours until I can get a AMCI job. I don't really want to instruct but I'm viewing it as a necessary evil.
To those who don't want to instruct...like someone said there is banner towing,pipeline patrol,or flying jumpers to build hours. Don't be a miserable instructor...it makes for miserable students.
As for more money coming out of this....I don't see that happening. More pilots mean everybody else gets a smaller slice of the pie. Plus there is still alot more supply than demand....last I heard there were about 5000 furloughed 121 guys out there. Plus a hell of alot of hungry CFIs trying to make their jump. Wages will be depressed for a little while longer. I would like to see more money....the thought of making 20-22k flying a plane when I will make nearly 70k driving a bus is just wrong on so many levels.
In closing to my fellow up and comers....don't hate,cooperate! Get your time in and do the damn thing. Moaning and groaning on the internets is not gonna change anything.
Personally I think 1500hrs is a little bit of an overkill. IMO,3407 would have still happened if this bill was law on that night. This is being done to quiet down the families and traveling public.
Somebody else posted that that the goal for being a professional airline pilot has gotten pushed further out for those up and coming. I agree, those coming up now have to eat a crap sandwich. Get use to the taste...it comes with the industry. If you want the job,you gotta jump through the hoops.
I look at it like this....I have no more desire to be in the 121 world. Too much BS and not enough return on the investment. My goal now is to get 135 mins and go someplace like AirNet,Ameriflight or Mountain Air Cargo and build hours until I can get a AMCI job. I don't really want to instruct but I'm viewing it as a necessary evil.
To those who don't want to instruct...like someone said there is banner towing,pipeline patrol,or flying jumpers to build hours. Don't be a miserable instructor...it makes for miserable students.
As for more money coming out of this....I don't see that happening. More pilots mean everybody else gets a smaller slice of the pie. Plus there is still alot more supply than demand....last I heard there were about 5000 furloughed 121 guys out there. Plus a hell of alot of hungry CFIs trying to make their jump. Wages will be depressed for a little while longer. I would like to see more money....the thought of making 20-22k flying a plane when I will make nearly 70k driving a bus is just wrong on so many levels.
In closing to my fellow up and comers....don't hate,cooperate! Get your time in and do the damn thing. Moaning and groaning on the internets is not gonna change anything.
lostplanetairman
Well-Known Member
I've said it before on other threads. I went to my first 121 job with 2500 hours and felt underqualified. I spent years instructing prior to that. So, I don't understand the fuss about 1500 hours.
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
I should have prefaced it that way.
trafficinsight
Well-Known Member
757driver49
Well-Known Member
So when will this bill go into effect? Just from reading this bill, it seems like it won't go into effect for a year or two. Am I reading this wrong? If it won't go into effect for a few years, I suspect the regionals will hire many pilots without an ATP, in preparation for this law to take effect, what I believe would be many low time pilot's and then by the time this takes effect, these low time pilots will be ATP rated pilots in a CRJ/ERJ. Am I wrong?
aloft
New Member
Increasing safety is the objective, not keeping the cost of aviation low.As if aviation wasn't already expensive enough, let's regulate it a little more. That will help.
SpiraMirabilis
Possible Subversive
No, they'll just require an ATP. There is a pool of qualified applicants... mostly furloughed from regional airlines themselves. However, they will find eventually that there aren't many people willing to work for subsistence wages.
staplegun
Well-Known Member
Sorry, Bob, I had no idea!
I've jumpseated in a lot of "RJ" cockpits and have seen some (only one, really) F/O's who had no business being there.
99.9% of my experiences have been positive and the crews have been very professional...
Nonetheless, count me as one who thinks this bill is a step in the right direction...
Kevin
(15,000+ flight hours...)
Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
I'm still earnestly looking for the guy who's "BTDT" (of which I am NOT one) who thinks this is a bad thing. Bueller? Bueller?
Bandit_Driver
Gold Member
Lostplanetairman I felt the same way when I went to mine at 3000 hours and had a year of instructing and almost 3 years of 135 freight experience.
I just don't get why everyone doesn't want to earn their job....
FAYEV
Well-Known Member
Is that because of the complexity of the airplane or the 121 environment as a whole? I'm not trying to offend anyone, I'm just curious. Because if it's the airplane, I would think even a 5000-hour guy would have problems initially.
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
I don't doubt it. I'd say the number is anywhere between 15% and 30% that don't have the skills to be there for the first few hundred hours. In my view that's too high a number.
Also, there were plenty of guys who were hired who had the skills but not the attitude (which is what I was alluding to in my earlier post).
I don't want this to come across as a slam on FOs that were hired in the last few years. As I said, not everybody was like this and I'm trying not to paint with a broad brush. It's just that there was a marked difference during that time period and of course the vocal minority tend to stand out.
Clocks
Well-Known Member
For me (former intern hired at low hours at xjt) it was mostly the speed of the airplane and the operation. Everything is fast, everything is happening 5 miles ago. There's a huge difference between a light twin bouncing along at 150kts and keeping your speed up on a jet that feels like it will happily rip its own wings off if you let it as you descend through 10k and approach the airport.
But learning the airplane systems and how to fly it was no more difficult than the first time you fly a seminole. And once you get your "routine" down of things to do when you get to the airplane, or doing a quick turn, then it's pretty straight forward and you only have to learn different anomalies as they come up.
I think my saving grace was being rock solid on instrument operations prior to training. I only instructed a few hundred hours but the majority of it was instrument training in the seminole. I am very glad I wasn't in the full motion sim in new hire training trying to remember how to shoot a DME arc. All I had to learn was how to do it in the ERJ (what knobs to twist, helpful hints using the additional needles, how much you should lead a turn at the higher speed, etc).
And to be humble, I'm certain my captains, especially on the first few pairings off IOE, were helping prevent mistakes and cleaning up after me. But I've thought about it a lot, and I really don't know of any mistakes I made that I woudn't have made with 1000 more hours as a CFI. You just don't hold, divert, deice, make a crossing restriction, go into o'hare or newark, or navigate around the tops of thunderstorms very often in a seminole or 172.
Well, sort of neither. My opinion anyway.
Anybody that's a reasonably good pilot can and should feel comfortable in flying any airplane (within reason) by the end of the first 100 hours (assuming a typical training program prior to getting in the plane).
This has almost nothing to do with being able to handle an airplane. It is all about the general all-around experience that someone brings to the cockpit as part of a team. How much exposure to weather. How much exposure to equipment malfunctions. How to prioritize when things get busy. How to work as a team. Understanding both your and your copilot's limitations and strengths and the best way to use that knowledge. General understanding of the capabilities and limitations of ATC. Understanding how ATC does what it does and how that impacts all portions of a flight. Having the experience to understand when you need to be planning alternative plans of action, and how to set the limits that trigger those plans. Implementing an alternative plan, including how you inform ATC, your co-pilot, and your company of what/why/when without getting overwhelmed. Understanding when it's time to cut extraneous factors from your to-do-right-now list, and how to prioritize those items....
Give me 5 minutes and I can double that list.
Experience is all about experience. So many things happen in every 1,000 hours of flying an airplane that each 1,000 hours adds to a pilots knowledge, understanding, and skill.
Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
What Steve said. And FWIW, I had 5000+ hours when I first laid hands on a jet, and I was just as far behind it as the lowest time puppymill product, I would imagine. The point isn't that higher time guys are born knowing a particular airplane/operation, it's that you don't have to teach them all of the OTHER stuff, or, well, in my case SOME other other stuff. 
TUCKnTRUCK
That guy
Very much so... even to the point of little things, like for instance, If you launch out of EWR off the 22's, and you are going to the north, what climb profile are you going to plan? or are you going to just blast out of there at max rate of climb? North dept's off the 22's means you are going to get stuck at 6000 feet until you are a good 20 miles north of EWR, so it's in your best interest to climb at 250kts at get north of the field asap.
On the other hand, If you are launching wrong direction off an outstation, then climb as fast as possible until you turn on route... etc. It's these little planning things that seem to matter more to the guys with lots of time.
If you're on the downwind, and can see that you are # 2, or 3,4 5 etc for the field, there is no reason to go past the field at 250 knots... slow up and let your spot come to you. (assuming nobody behind you etc) It's the "big" picture that the experience opens your eyes too... and lets you fly better, more efficiently, and more safely. There isn't much nicer than a crew member with you that really gets it, is ahead of the game, and is an extension of what you are doing. When both members are on the same page, think the same way, then it really works well, and it makes even the short 15 minute flight easy.
And, guys, I mean it about going out and having fun now. You really don't know how good you have it. Find a good student, and talk him/her into going on a fun trip. $100 hamburgers are great. If you are in the NE, fly up to alton bay for the presidents day pancake fly in on the ice runway. Bring a camera, and get some stories.