House committee votes to raise pilot retirement age to 67

///AMG said:
I just don't think these people are all "I got mine, time to pull up the ladder" types that folks make them out to be.
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They aren't, typically, I actually think a substantial portion of the country are workaholics to be perfectly honest. And I don't mean that sarcastically, like, legitimately it's almost like a substance abuse sort of thing. They don't know how to "not work." It's not really a work ethic thing either, because they don't actually accomplish any more than the rest of us, but they just have tied up all of their social life and personal well-being in their place of employment and want to spend every waking moment of their lives there. They have no hobbies, they've don't read, they work... it's kind of sad actually. I like working, I like being productive, I get that sense of satisfaction and completion from a job well done. But I also like doing stuff that I want to do, a surprising amount of older people I've met somehow lost that along the way.
 
ClearedForOption said:
I know that I’m ’on the wrong side’ of this issue… but I just don’t see how a snapshot of your seniority on your retirement date is the achievement award of your career.

And you never know what your career is going to be like except looking back. Look at our two employers… one merger stomped down by broadway quoting judge. Another one that is in the first stages of the 4723 milestones. We don’t even have a full card in front of us in the bingo game that is life. Or would the analogy be, the card gets swapped out a bunch? Either way….

What really got me thinking about it was one of the aviation themed podcasts I was listening to. At my carrier, it’s gonna be a potential loss of like ~712k of income in todays money over those two years if I chose to stay and fly min sked.

Both sides… National and the Let Experience Fly guys have been very disingenuous through the whole political fight. We’ve all seen the memes for the ‘experience’ crowd… National is running a crazy propaganda campaign on this one. It feels like there were more calls to action than with secondary barriers. Or even single pilot stuff. There was more than enough time to poll the membership and get updated data as to the will of the group.
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I think you underestimate how big of an effect the change in retirement age can have in your career. It is not simply two years delayed at the top of the seniority list. It directly impacts your career by determining where you will fall in the event of a furlough or downgrade. Those guys furloughed at United during the lost decade can tell you directly how different their careers would have been had the age change not occurred just before a big economic downturn. Seniority is everything in this industry, just one or two numbers in your new hire class can determine whether you upgrade, hold a line, or are furloughed.

If your seniority is delayed and a downturn happens at the same time, it has lasting repercussions. Junior FedEx guys during the last change dealt with the FEs going back to the left seat and many were displaced out of their seat/base. (Don't even get guys started on 4.A.2.b. unless you have about 4 hours.) I know of one guy that had to sell his house at huge loss when he was pushed out. Also, a lot people medical out before 65, the two years that some people are able to take could be two years others will never get back.

My career was significantly delayed by 65, I got to spend additional time at the regionals making sub 40k with $800/month in student loan payments. As a result, I paid on those student loans much longer when means I paid more interest than if I had paid them off sooner. It delayed me buying a house which meant when I eventually did, I paid much more than if I was able to afford to buy one sooner. I also was barely able to contribute to my 401k which will greatly impact how much I will have saved once I hit retirement due to compounding interest and the state of the market at the time I was able to invest. Time at your prime years is something you can never get back.

Sure, I'm at a career destination sitting as a captain now but I was already pushed back ten percent in my seat on the last bid. What will happen on the next one if the company's manning projections change again due to a delay in retirements for two years?
 
ppragman said:
They aren't, typically, I actually think a substantial portion of the country are workaholics to be perfectly honest. And I don't mean that sarcastically, like, legitimately it's almost like a substance abuse sort of thing. They don't know how to "not work." It's not really a work ethic thing either, because they don't actually accomplish any more than the rest of us, but they just have tied up all of their social life and personal well-being in their place of employment and want to spend every waking moment of their lives there. They have no hobbies, they've don't read, they work... it's kind of sad actually. I like working, I like being productive, I get that sense of satisfaction and completion from a job well done. But I also like doing stuff that I want to do, a surprising amount of older people I've met somehow lost that along the way.
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I can't count the number of people who ask me about retirement, "But aren't you bored?" "Don't you miss working?" "What do you do all day?"

"No." "No." "How much time do you have to listen?"

To me, and I mean no judgement ... but to me, the need to fill every moment with busyness is far more sad than sitting on the deck, with drink in hand and dogs by side, watching the sun set while birds sing and a light wind blows. I don't get paid much for doing things like that in retirement but, damn, it's the best time I've ever known - accountable to no one, enjoying the occasional company of friends and family, every hour my own.

For me, it is bliss🤷‍♂️
 
ppragman said:
They aren't, typically, I actually think a substantial portion of the country are workaholics to be perfectly honest. And I don't mean that sarcastically, like, legitimately it's almost like a substance abuse sort of thing. They don't know how to "not work." It's not really a work ethic thing either, because they don't actually accomplish any more than the rest of us, but they just have tied up all of their social life and personal well-being in their place of employment and want to spend every waking moment of their lives there. They have no hobbies, they've don't read, they work... it's kind of sad actually. I like working, I like being productive, I get that sense of satisfaction and completion from a job well done. But I also like doing stuff that I want to do, a surprising amount of older people I've met somehow lost that along the way.
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My maternal grandfather was a Marine in WWI, that's right, the Great War. Came home, started a family, built locomotives until he retired. After that, he opened an auto shop, and did odd jobs while grandmother worked their small farm. They both died in the same town they were born in a frigid part of NYS. They were extremely typical of that cohort.

"Going to do fun stuff on a warm beach with fruity drinks" wasn't even in a loose orbit around their world. They had a tractor for the farm, which was a huge improvement from following a pooping mule all day.
 
Richman said:
My maternal grandfather was a Marine in WWI, that's right, the Great War. Came home, started a family, built locomotives until he retired. After that, he opened an auto shop, and did odd jobs while grandmother worked their small farm. They both died in the same town they were born in a frigid part of NYS. They were extremely typical of that cohort.

"Going to do fun stuff on a warm beach with fruity drinks" wasn't even in a loose orbit around their world. They had a tractor for the farm, which was a huge improvement from following a pooping mule all day.
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My grandparents and parents, too.
 
Bob Ridpath said:
I can't count the number of people who ask me about retirement, "But aren't you bored?" "Don't you miss working?" "What do you do all day?"

"No." "No." "How much time do you have to listen?"

To me, and I mean no judgement ... but to me, the need to fill every moment with busyness is far more sad than sitting on the deck, with drink in hand and dogs by side, watching the sun set while birds sing and a light wind blows. I don't get paid much for doing things like that in retirement but, damn, it's the best time I've ever known - accountable to no one, enjoying the occasional company of friends and family, every hour my own.

For me, it is bliss🤷‍♂️
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Pilots, for whatever reason, just aren’t like that. Most need to work and want to work more after 65. Hence the constant posts across the pilot forums/sites about sim jobs, 135 jobs, etc.

I know a CA, whose father was a Capt and he said after his father retired at 60, he died at a young(er) age of 67. And that, and I quote, “retirement killed him.”




I dunno. I’m just wired differently. I’m the kinda guy you could leave home alone for a day and without having to do any house work, gardening, or paid jobs, and I do just fine.


So when you say you’re chilling on the deck with your dogs, a drink, I can totally picture that, and that’s awesome. :)
 
Bob Ridpath said:
I can't count the number of people who ask me about retirement, "But aren't you bored?" "Don't you miss working?" "What do you do all day?"

"No." "No." "How much time do you have to listen?"

To me, and I mean no judgement ... but to me, the need to fill every moment with busyness is far more sad than sitting on the deck, with drink in hand and dogs by side, watching the sun set while birds sing and a light wind blows. I don't get paid much for doing things like that in retirement but, damn, it's the best time I've ever known - accountable to no one, enjoying the occasional company of friends and family, every hour my own.

For me, it is bliss🤷‍♂️
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I had about 9 months off during Covid and of the various lessons I learned...

I'll have no problem in retirement.
 
arkflyr said:
13 months for me and it was the greatest thing ever. I've been working since I was 15 and never thought I would have the opportunity to take a sabbatical in this career but it really changed my perspective on life and what is important.
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And I learned I actually can grow a beard!
 
JordanD said:
And I learned I actually can grow a beard!
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Growing hair is my body’s only natural talent. I did this in 5 months.

1707508110128.jpeg


What’s funny is I become a ski patroller that winter and when I finally broke down and shaved the thing off at the end of the season nobody recognized me.
 
///AMG said:
I kinda get your perspective more than I have before with this explanation, buuuuuuuut......you, even me, anyone in this industry right now with the pay scales where they are at, are making crazy money for much longer periods of time. You are either TOS CA or very close to it, and will be for 20+ more years. I'll make, cumulatively, a lot less than you will at this shop before I retire theoretically at about the same time as you (though I plan to leave well before 65, so I guess even less). But in either of our cases, we will make so much more than a lot of these guys who lived through numerous airlines, bankruptcy, being FE's, being out on the street during furloughs or strikes, and being forced back to the bottom of a new seniority list when their "destination" airline went TU. You talk a lot about this current generation not knowing what a downturn is like, which isn't wrong (I'm one of them based on my DoH). But none of us know what a really bad decade of deregulation + economic chaos + industry restructuring is like. Other than those boomers. I say this because there are two sides to every argument. I'm not in favor of either one, but I acknowledge that there is more than greed behind some folks desire for age 67. And when I say that, I generally don't think 67 is a good thing. I just don't think these people are all "I got mine, time to pull up the ladder" types that folks make them out to be.
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Very few of the senior captains I know like the idea of 67 not because they love the job, or the industry. Most of them are burnt out, dispise modern day aviation... They're picking up trips for money, not because of the overnight or a restaurant near their hotel. A select few of the senior pilots I know fly small airplanes, or have any other aviation interest outside of work, which to me is the easiest way to measure passion versus money.

On the other hand, I just heard an interview with Joe Montana where he said he'd love to have kept playing but too many injuries have taken a toll on him. He had a pretty good quote that if everyone had a chance to play in a packed stadium on a Sunday, win or lose, we'd all understand why football players stay in until they can't (looking at you Tom Brady & Brett Favre). I think he said the game is just "stupid fun" and hard to match that feeling once you've tasted it. Now that's passion.
 
Richman said:
My maternal grandfather was a Marine in WWI, that's right, the Great War. Came home, started a family, built locomotives until he retired. After that, he opened an auto shop, and did odd jobs while grandmother worked their small farm. They both died in the same town they were born in a frigid part of NYS. They were extremely typical of that cohort.

"Going to do fun stuff on a warm beach with fruity drinks" wasn't even in a loose orbit around their world. They had a tractor for the farm, which was a huge improvement from following a pooping mule all day.
Click to expand...
I get wanting to be productive and even finding that stuff "fun" - but good lord, "take a day off once in awhile." It doesn't even need to be on a beach or whatever. I really respect the hell out of my folks for this reason - during COVID they realized they could punch out and live comfortably if they tightened the belt a bit so they did. My dad even said, "hey, I've got to make way for the next generation" and shut his handyman business down. That seems rare - far more often it seems like people holding on to everything they can for dear life. They're still valued members of society, they're still doing things that are extremely important (at least to me), but the extra money usually isn't worth it.
 
Bob Ridpath said:
I can't count the number of people who ask me about retirement, "But aren't you bored?" "Don't you miss working?" "What do you do all day?"

"No." "No." "How much time do you have to listen?"

To me, and I mean no judgement ... but to me, the need to fill every moment with busyness is far more sad than sitting on the deck, with drink in hand and dogs by side, watching the sun set while birds sing and a light wind blows. I don't get paid much for doing things like that in retirement but, damn, it's the best time I've ever known - accountable to no one, enjoying the occasional company of friends and family, every hour my own.

For me, it is bliss🤷‍♂️
Click to expand...
Yup - like, I love learning, doing things that help people, and exploring things etc. but I don't want to grind away until I'm 80. A lot of people do though.
 
ppragman said:
Yup - like, I love learning, doing things that help people, and exploring things etc. but I don't want to grind away until I'm 80. A lot of people do though.
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I don't think I'll have any problems in retirement if I have enough disposable income to keep some hobbies going. It's pretty liberating realizing I can do whatever I want with no timeline, although even with a ton of time off I end up keeping myself to some kind of schedule. Hell, I look at my parents and I think they're way busier and more fulfilled in retirement than they ever were when they were working.
 
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