Horizon to cut pay

B

buffalopilot

Well-Known Member
I was reading on APC that Horizon management wants to cut their pay to the other "regional market value" for pilots.


SH-TY
 
I can say tht I'm surprised...Everyone on this board and that "other one" talked about Horizon like it was the "second coming" an A++ regional and if you got on consider yourself lucky!
 
Of course management "wants to cut pay". Whether or not they'll be able to is another matter. Horizon pilots are pretty militant from what I gather. I don't expect them to sit down and take it, even under the threat of having their flying reduced.
 
If I'm not mistaken, Horizon is still profitable, so management really doesn't have any justification whatsoever for cutting pay... I hope they stand strong!
 
They can always cook up some bogus bankruptcy threat like everybody else. Don, didn't UPS mgt want to lower pilot pay to "market" rates a while ago? What became of that?
 
"Don, didn't UPS mgt want to lower pilot pay to "market" rates a while ago? What became of that?"

Ya know what's funny. When I first got hired at UPS they said we're not an airline, we're a package delivery company, and you can't compare yourselves to other "real" airline pilots. Now, they are saying the other airline pilots have taken cuts so ya'll shouldn't expect so much....

I'm not kidding.

But to answer your question. I'm not aware of them wanting to lower us to "market" rates. If FEDEX is the market, then we might be able to use that as a starting point, but I doubt that would be what they had in mind.
 
Alchemy said:
Of course management "wants to cut pay". Whether or not they'll be able to is another matter. Horizon pilots are pretty militant from what I gather. I don't expect them to sit down and take it, even under the threat of having their flying reduced.
Click to expand...

i can totally see a group of bearded mountain men in their uniforms with ice climbing boots and pick axes picketing in front of a denver terminal.

and to finish off the stereotype, theyd all fail drug tests.
 
This is what really steams me about corporate America. You've got a profitable company, and the guys who are doing the work to contribute to those profits are doing a good job.

The logical thing to do would be to, at the very least, not punish the very people who have made you successful. It would be logical to REWARD them for a job well done.

Instead, they say, hey, thanks for the great work, we're going to give ourselves a nice fat multi-million bonus, and you are going to take pay cuts.

Is it just my crazy thinking after taking one off the coconut playing hockey tonight and adding a few beers into the mix, or is that seriously messed up?
 
You're right Tony, it's messed up. This is exactly the problem with regionals today. There is no brand scope for us; we are all drop-in replacements for one another. The products are very similair, the discriminating factor is price, and labor costs are a major part of that price. The guys who do the job for the least amount of money get the work, while the guys who try to earn a decent living are sent packing. Management has already worked their magic on the big guys --- virtually every major ALPA pilot has taken a significant paycut in the past 3 years --- now they're out to suck everything they can from the people who can afford to give up the least, regional pilots.

In my opinion it's borderline unethical to carry out these kinds of threats when your company and your major customers (Alaska and Frontier) are making money. Granted, management always wants to trim costs and maximize profit, but it should not be done at the expense of the workers.

I've been in the airlines less than 2 years and the politics of it all is mind-boggling. You've really got to figure out some way to put this stuff out of your head on your days off and even while you're doing your job at work, otherwise you'll go gray at 25.
 
Alchemy said:
You're right Tony, it's messed up. This is exactly the problem with regionals today. There is no brand scope for us; we are all drop-in replacements for one another. The products are very similair, the discriminating factor is price, and labor costs are a major part of that price. The guys who do the job for the least amount of money get the work, while the guys who try to earn a decent living are sent packing. Management has already worked their magic on the big guys --- virtually every major ALPA pilot has taken a significant paycut in the past 3 years --- now they're out to suck everything they can from the people who can afford to give up the least, regional pilots.

In my opinion it's borderline unethical to carry out these kinds of threats when your company and your major customers (Alaska and Frontier) are making money. Granted, management always wants to trim costs and maximize profit, but it should not be done at the expense of the workers.

I've been in the airlines less than 2 years and the politics of it all is mind-boggling. You've really got to figure out some way to put this stuff out of your head on your days off and even while you're doing your job at work, otherwise you'll go gray at 25.
Click to expand...

IMO, this is why scope at the majors should be in everyone's best interest. Get the connection carrier planes and pilots on the mainline and stop this nonsense.
 
DE727UPS said:
"Don, didn't UPS mgt want to lower pilot pay to "market" rates a while ago? What became of that?"

Ya know what's funny. When I first got hired at UPS they said we're not an airline, we're a package delivery company, and you can't compare yourselves to other "real" airline pilots. Now, they are saying the other airline pilots have taken cuts so ya'll shouldn't expect so much....

I'm not kidding.

But to answer your question. I'm not aware of them wanting to lower us to "market" rates. If FEDEX is the market, then we might be able to use that as a starting point, but I doubt that would be what they had in mind.
Click to expand...


I'm curious...as I have no idea. But is it possible in the future for UPS and Fedex to start contracting out their flying like the major passenger airlines do? Is this a threat down the road?
 
Just the quote fro APC
- how vaild I dont know

Despite profitability (we just got our profit sharing checks), and despite the company telling us how valuable we are at generating profit for the company right up to the last minute...the company has opened negotiations by determining that our salaries are way out of line with industry, and therefore must be cut.
For those of you without background on Horizon, this may appear to be true, but for many years we were VERY underpaid (FO pay $18,240/yr for 70 seat jet), and thus don't feel disposed to give back what little we've managed to recoup.

The most chicken**** part of the company's opening letter was the part where they point out that they got screwed by signing with us just a week or so before 9/11. What this has to do with the fact that we are currently making profits, I'll never know.
 
buffalopilot said:
Just the quote fro APC
- how vaild I dont know

Despite profitability (we just got our profit sharing checks), and despite the company telling us how valuable we are at generating profit for the company right up to the last minute...the company has opened negotiations by determining that our salaries are way out of line with industry, and therefore must be cut.
For those of you without background on Horizon, this may appear to be true, but for many years we were VERY underpaid (FO pay $18,240/yr for 70 seat jet), and thus don't feel disposed to give back what little we've managed to recoup.

The most chicken**** part of the company's opening letter was the part where they point out that they got screwed by signing with us just a week or so before 9/11. What this has to do with the fact that we are currently making profits, I'll never know.
Click to expand...

???
 
buffalopilot said:
The most chicken**** part of the company's opening letter was the part where they point out that they got screwed by signing with us just a week or so before 9/11. What this has to do with the fact that we are currently making profits, I'll never know.
Click to expand...
Makes ya wonder. I'LL never know either?!?
FWIW Air Wisconsin singed on 9-11/01.
I am not sure if that has been used as a concessionary tool at awac.
Either way it is kind of after the fact 5 years later, I dunno?

good luck :)
 
"But is it possible in the future for UPS and Fedex to start contracting out their flying like the major passenger airlines do? Is this a threat down the road"

Scope is a big issue for us. We bought Menlo and our scope required us to fly it after a year. The company basically ignored the contract (scope) and even admitted to it. In negotiations now as to the penalty but I think it will be part of our contract whenever we get one.

Internationally, it's hard to enforce scope. Treaty's, Politics, Laws, it's all pretty confusing and the company finds it easier to hide scope violations and some of them are probably legit. We don't have the airframes or bodies to fly all the stuff, anyhow.

The Menlo stuff we start flying in June and July. There is a lot of new flying without a lot of new bodies or airplanes. The one thing I'm not sure of is if Menlo stuff is going to be day stuff, like Fedex and the mail. Fedex picked up the mail to use their airframes more 24/7. If Menlo flying is done when some of the airframes are typically sitting around, then it could work. If it's all done in conjunction with our night system, I don't see how it's going to work. We'll see.

Anyhow, to really answer your question. When you contract out, you give up some control. UPS loves control. It's everything to them. In a few instances, internationally, it might make sense. For the most part, I think they know contracting out doesn't save them any money.

I heard a story once about early on when we contracted out with Tigers over peak. Not sure if it was before or after the buyout, but the Tigers guys wouldn't carry their bags up the stairs or leave without proper catering. That's the problem with contracting out, they couldn't control those guys.
 
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