Homeland security conceeds defeat

ChasenSFO said:
How many people getting stranded in the US for days before they can be rebooked is it going to take before the men in charge realise airport security isn't doing anything but looking busy to make people feel better? Really, I'd like to know.
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How long? It seems to me that airport security hasn't been doing anything but looking busy to make people feel better for about 8 years now. And it seems to me that most members of the general public with more than 3 braincells have known and understood this fact for about 8 years now.

So based on that, I think we can safely make two predictions. Airport security will continue to be a farce and nothing more for a very long time. And, like so many other situations in the past, things will continue to get worse before they get better. A lot worse.
 
MikeD said:
I would love to see that happen........arrest a whole airliner? They can't manage one security checkpoint efficiently, much less arrest, process and hold a complete airliner pax load. Agree, ridiculous.
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What you suggest is the same as my want of a 1,000 GA plane penetration of the DC FRZ. Of course they will throw the whole lot of us in jail. But after the realization that is the exact intention, they will make examples of a handful. Do you notice the liberal use of "they" in this?

I fear it will take something as bold as this form of civil disobedience to stop the insanity perpetuated by "our" fed govt. One reason is they know a good thing when they see it...nice, cushy, secure job.

If one wants to pack an airliner with such like-minded folks, you can count me in.
 
RICHARD5 said:
What you suggest is the same as my want of a 1,000 GA plane penetration of the DC FRZ. Of course they will throw the whole lot of us in jail. But after the realization that is the exact intention, they will make examples of a handful. Do you notice the liberal use of "they" in this?

I fear it will take something as bold as this form of civil disobedience to stop the insanity perpetuated by "our" fed govt. One reason is they know a good thing when they see it...nice, cushy, secure job.

If one wants to pack an airliner with such like-minded folks, you can count me in.
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Very true here. And agree. Until something like this is done, the idiocy of regs heaped more and more on the American people, will continue.

And it continues because the people let it.
 
But we are a republic with elected representitives. What do they do but glad hand each other? Just look at the sweetheart deals being made under the guise of health care.

The 2010 mid-terms will be spectacularly interesting.
 
MikeD said:
Very true here. And agree. Until something like this is done, the idiocy of regs heaped more and more on the American people, will continue.

And it continues because the people let it.
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I don't know where you stand in military intel and what not, but aren't the GA restrictions primarily for worries of soft target attacks? IE Ball games and any other large crowds of people. The same would seem to hold true for high ranking government officials around areas of washington.

I mean a Cessna loaded with 400 pounds of C4 and slammed into a cluster of people can still do some pretty serious damage I would assume. It seems the majority of people will say, "well a cessna can't blow up a building." Well true, but what kind of damage can it do when loaded with the right equipment?

Though I will say this, I am more for real security than illusions of real security that seem to be present.
 
RICHARD5 said:
What you suggest is the same as my want of a 1,000 GA plane penetration of the DC FRZ.
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Dumbest idea ever. I'm sorry, but it is. I realize you believe it will show people once and for all that GA airplanes pose no threat. I can assure you, the exact opposite is what 97% of the population will take away from the event.

There are plenty of examples on record which clearly show the GA isn't a threat. Suicidal kid stole a Cessna and flew it into a building in Florida. Killed himself, hurt no one else and did some repairable damage to exactly one room in the building. Baseball player flew his Cirrus up the East River and slammed into a building. Killed both on board, injured no one else, did repairable damage to one apartment. And there are plenty of other examples as well. But no matter how many of these examples you line up, people still see little planes as threats to their safety.

So flying 1000 little planes into DC at the same time will only make them more scared, not less. The very first thought that will occur to most of the non-flying public is that if 1000 good natured pilots could organize and fly in DC airspace all at the same time to prove that little planes are safe, then some terrorist organization could also assemble 1000 GA airplanes and fly into DC or any other city and do unthickable amounts of harm. They will have that thought. And then they will call their Senator and demand that something be done to protect everyone from this threat they never knew existed. The Senators will act, and laws get passed and you will not like them.

And that of course is completely ignoring the incredibly high odds that at least a few of those 1000 airplanes will bump into one another during the stunt. Oshkosh and Sun-N-Fun use clearly laid out published arrival routes and rules along with tons of ATC support to get all the weekend warriors in to and out of those events and pilots still can't follow the rules or keep from hitting one another. Try to organize such a thing in secret and mid-airs are almost guaranteed. Add a mid-air or two to your stunt and the only thing people will see is the potential for a 1000 plane brigade of death from the skies. Put another way, this event would probably be the best thing to do if we all wanted see a world where there were more restrictions placed on GA than we've ever imagined possible.
 
ChasenSFO said:
Sure, but how much damage would a tuck loaded with explosives do? Probably much more.
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But it is limited by roads into where it can be placed. An aircraft is not. In other words, it can be placed in a manner to maximize casualties based on the calculated blast radius.

I am not saying an aircraft is better, nor do I agree with much of what has been done. But I do realize that a threat does exist and something should be done. Right now though I am more worried about some shmuck getting minimum wage jacking my luggage than being blown up though, and that is sad.
 
Hacker15e said:
So, this is where we sit:

People at the KLM office in Nigeria and security in the Netherlands screwed up.

The DHS decides that to "do something" they'll institute a bunch of measures that have absolutely zero to do with fixing the root cause of the problem.

Got it.

Way to go, Janet. Yet another DHS success story.
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Totally agree with that.

IMHO these stupid new rules just hands al qaeda another victory. :mad:
 
granlistillo said:
Totally agree with that.

IMHO these stupid new rules just hands al qaeda another victory. :mad:
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Whats the difference? They won the war the week after 9/11 when going to the airport became akin to checking into prison, after the President said to "go on with our normal lives, we won't let terrorists affect that."

We lost this entire "war on terror" on 9/12/01 partner.
 
MikeD said:
We lost this entire "war on terror" on 9/12/01 partner.
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I hear and feel your sentiment and agree to some extent. Not too sure this thing is over, but I think we both would agree that stupid rules give them a victory???:( Maybe a few JDAMs here and there has stopped the jihadist from attacking American target, at least during President Bush time. Now that we have a more likable prez, who knows? I wish him the best, but we have had two Jihadi attacks (one successful one not)in the US. Maybe The prez should give back the peace prize and stand up and make a George C Scott (Patton) soliloquy and tell our enemies we are gonna friggin grease the threads of our tanks with their guts. But then he wouldn't be nice. And I am not yet anti Obama, (been a long time McCain supporter) but starting to think he needs to be a little less nice.
 
granlistillo said:
I hear and feel your sentiment and agree to some extent. Not too sure this thing is over, but I think we both would agree that stupid rules give them a victory???:( Maybe a few JDAMs here and there has stopped the jihadist from attacking American target, at least during President Bush time. Now that we have a more likable prez, who knows? I wish him the best, but we have had two Jihadi attacks (one successful one not)in the US. Maybe The prez should give back the peace prize and stand up and make a George C Scott (Patton) soliloquy and tell our enemies we are gonna friggin grease the threads of our tanks with their guts. But then he wouldn't be nice. And I am not yet anti Obama, (been a long time McCain supporter) but starting to think he needs to be a little less nice.
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Obama and his socialist friends make me sick. All he has done so far is bend overbackwards for a socialist agenda and made way to many efforts appease the muslim nation.

We need somebody in the office with a backbone and that can make a freaking decision without have to have a conference first. McCain wouldn't have been perfect but we would have been a lot safer. I feel sorry for our troops overseas right now since Obama can't make up his mind. He's against the troop surge then he's for it but only partially.

One would think if a general in the field says I need X troops you send him X troops. Not take months to meet with him then only give him some troops...

I better stop now before get on much more of a rant...
 
You know, I am so sick of hearing about terrorist crap. I say give everyone on the airplane a gun when they board, with one bullet in the chamber. If some one stands up and screams "ALLAH ACHKBAR" then everyone will shoot his/her ass, problem solved.

Proff of this is in the fact that people were diving over seats to subdue this guy while this was going on. People need to take charge of their lives, and stop letting the gubment do it for them. We have become a society of people who just follow the herd, and can not think for ourselves. Shame on us!

We will never be able to stop these terrorists attacks, so we need to stop living in fear. The only way to make travel safe from terror is to seal every passenger in a buble that is totally self contained/blast/bullet proof, and have us all do the pax screen nek'id, and squat and cough before we board!
 
Great thread and discussion. Not even sure where to start. Have you looked at the genious pool which makes up the TSA? SAD!

If we the people cannot even rise up when our Constitution and laws are openly demeaned and broken then how can anyone think a whole aircraft of pax will rise up and break the rules? If only!

Regarding Obama/McCain...ummm Ron Paul! Bring Ross Perot back. End the big banks and federal reserve. Stop feeding the military industrial complex. Our fantasy about our government caring about us is believed by the illiterate masses. Give em a big screen, ipods, and tv shows filled with fluff, keep them fat, dumb, and happy. Keeps people in line. I'm going to bed.
 
ETAV8R said:
Great thread and discussion. Not even sure where to start. Have you looked at the genious pool which makes up the TSA? SAD!

If we the people cannot even rise up when our Constitution and laws are openly demeaned and broken then how can anyone think a whole aircraft of pax will rise up and break the rules? If only!

Regarding Obama/McCain...ummm Ron Paul! Bring Ross Perot back. End the big banks and federal reserve. Stop feeding the military industrial complex. Our fantasy about our government caring about us is believed by the illiterate masses. Give em a big screen, ipods, and tv shows filled with fluff, keep them fat, dumb, and happy. Keeps people in line. I'm going to bed.
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Its economics just like the hiring of low time pilots in our field.

Post 9/11 the newly created TSA had to fill many positions at our airports. Hiring requirements and quals go down. Anyone off the street can pretty much be a screener. Now, if we had security professionals at these places with experience I feel we would be much better off. But it comes down to plain economics in the end.
 
Post 9-11 most of the screeners in place became federal employees. Now that there are more and more baggage CT scanners coming online less actual baggage screeners are needed. Unfortunately where did the surplus go?

I am also speaking of the people in positions of authority. From my limited experience in airport operations I was not impressed with the individuals representing the TSA's management.
 
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