Hiring Good Low Time Pilots

minitour said:
He was that bad (unsafe), yet you were just fine with your name in his logbook?

....:confused:

-mini
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It's alright though Mini, it's an accelerated course.

Marginally unsafe to outright dangerous is the new mediocracy. Where have you been?


To the OP of the quote this isn't an attack on you just some of the flight training in general I've seen lately, don't know the whole situation just a frustrating couple of days at the office building up.
 
I failed my instrument checkride because I leveled off 40 feet higher than the MDA...should that DQ me from an airline job? No and it didn't.

I've taken 13 checkrides in my flying career (including 3 PART 121 checkrides) and failed 1.

A thorough interview process is what is important. I think Colgan has a great interview process, but obviously people get through the cracks. The employer needs to take responsibility and when someone just can cut it, they need to be let go. Not the old "well we already have too much invested in them" - which I believe is the main reason crappy pilots are flying our nations citizens around.
 
moxiepilot said:
Sure I did. The ride started at 8 am and I finished at 8pm. My point is the statistics don't lie.

70% of CFI applicants pass on the first try. That's it - end of story.
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The table that you posted does not appear to be based on only first time attempts, so saying that 70% passed on their first try is quite erroneous.

I busted on my first try with the BHM FSDO, and I'll be the first to admit that I wasn't ready. My examiner was a great guy, and I learned a lot from him. But I also think that each FSDO has their own reputation and pass/fail rate that goes with it.
 
I_Money said:
Like any profession - there are some young pilots who are exceptional and others who aren't. What do you guys think is the trick to hiring 1000TT pilots that have sound aviation decision making, are capable of handling aircraft and are just professional in their approach to the career. Do you think not hiring anyone who has failed a check ride is a good method? Or............
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As a Pakistani, you have no right to know. In fact, you can't even ask that question.
 
After reading this thread, I feel like a bad person for having been fortunate enough to not bust a check ride yet.

Wow. :confused:

-mini
 
The majority of instructors that I know did bust their CFI checkride the first time, usually on the oral. I don't know anyone that failed the flight portion though.

I too busted my CFI initial oral. I don't have any hard feelings toward the examiner. It was an honest bust. I didn't know my aerodynamics well enough. I made sure that I learned it well for my recheck though. The flight portion of the test was a cake walk.

I think that what is important is what a pilot learns from failing a checkride. For my CFI recheck I knew Bernoulli's principle and all of Newton's laws, how they relate to creating lift, and even learned a little bit about their personal history.

A failed checkride can be an opportunity to learn.
 
moxiepilot said:
Sure I did. The ride started at 8 am and I finished at 8pm. My point is the statistics don't lie.

70% of CFI applicants pass on the first try. That's it - end of story.

I still stand by what I said, that those who claim the FSDO is out to get you are the ones who have most likely failed, needing to rationalize a failure.

You could lump it in projection or denial of reality, but the facts are the facts. Stating a FSDO is out to get you is objective. The statistics are not.

Arre you arguing for the sake of arguing? Let it go - I have my opinion and you have yours; and, I don't even know what your point is.

All I was doing was correcting a point made, which I backed up with hard numbers. When did this become about me?
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It varies by FSDO and from talking to an Inspector, it certainly is a form of "FAA is out to get you". It's not all about keeping the failure rate up, it's more about not everyone should pass on their first try and become a flight instructor just like that. They usually want to see you more than once. The standards are held close on these checkrides when on others, you get more chances. Personally, I feel the whole process needs to be updated to lower the failure rate somewhat. It shouldn't involve failing a lot of good CFI candidates that would otherwise pass. It should be more of a pure gauntlet. I failed on my first try not because I'm inferior to those who have not, but because the Inspector didn't like how I taught turns around a point. Do you think I even finished teaching turns around a point on my second ride? Nope. I got through 3/4 of a demo turn and the ride was over. I didn't even have to "fix" the problem and I passed. I would definitely argue that they are out to get you because the Inspector didn't like the way I explained turns around a point inflight and didn't even see what I did to explain it better on the 2nd try.
 
I_Money said:
Like any profession - there are some young pilots who are exceptional and others who aren't. What do you guys think is the trick to hiring 1000TT pilots that have sound aviation decision making, are capable of handling aircraft and are just professional in their approach to the career. Do you think not hiring anyone who has failed a check ride is a good method? Or............
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A failed checkride is a poor metric, anyone can have a bad day.

The best way other than to fly with them is to conduct a logbook audit. If you've got a 300hr hero with nothing but 172 and seminole time, take a pass. But if those same 300 hours are spent flying multiple types of aircraft in and out of many different airports then they're probably someone you want to talk to again. Often times you'll find guys who hang around the FBO's picking up what they can and networking their backsides off. If they'll work hard to get to you they'll work hard for you.

EDIT: The Dallas FSDO has about a 85% bust rate.
 
When I called the FSDO for my CFI ride, there was more than a 2 week delay, and at the time they would allow you to use a DE if that were the case. So maybe I should be -1 on my pass/fail metric for using a DE even though I passed my 1st attempt.

Maybe some of you guys who got 3 credits for Instruments 101 at your flight university should be -1 on your metric because I took calculus at a state university.:)

Checkride pass/fail rate is just another metric out there, like GPA, driving record, etc. that is often used to evaluate low time pilot candidates. The bottom line - its an "objective" metric used to look at a candidate, just like other metrics, and probably won't make or break a candidate. You could argue for eternity why "objective" metrics aren't objective enough.
 
In answer to OP and echoing others here--an extended interview process and trying to get a sense of their attitude. Especially for small company, having pilots who work well with each other and within the company culture is hugely important. Misery can turn otherwise good pilots into crap pilots. Having a miserable crap pilot making your other pilots miserable is simply no bueno.

In the interview, look for people with a good attitude and who are educable. We low-timers don't know everything (anything?) starting out in a new aviation job. If they can be taught, that's not a problem and can even be a boon in that have fewer old habits to break. But a low-timer who's a know-it-all stubborn jerk? Stay away, no matter how good a stick they seem to be.

Esa17's logbook audit is also a fine idea, and I would add that it's a good place to start some conversations with your potential employee. Ask them about some of their flights, if they were memorable and why. Should be a good barometer.

As for failed checkrides, unless there's a pattern, I wouldn't make too much out of it. It's no big deal if someone's failed a ride or two along the way (especially their initial CFI), but if they seem to fail every. single. checkride., obviously there's a problem.
 
Interesting. SKYW check airman Scott "The Terminator" Taylor used to be responsible for a lot of those Utah CFI failures, though I hear he's softened up a bit lately. I know two fairly recent CFIs here (one of whom did his initial with Taylor) who couldn't teach their way out of a paper bag, yet passed on their first try.
 
Checkrides won't tell you a thing about a low-time pilot, as the content validity of any given PTS does not correlate to real-world aptitude/judgement. Until we COMPLETELY overhaul our testing system to include LOFT-type scenarios, a low-timer with a perfect record is still an unknown. Either you can pass 121/135/91x initial or you can't, and even that offers no real insight into how you're going to turn out.

If we really want to hire low-time folks, a long interview and long probationary/training curriculum needs to be conducted.

All this talk of general aviation checkride failures is a red herring created by the folks at USA Today.

I should add that the FAA conducted a study indicating that those with failed checkrides are at no greater risk of accidents/incidents than those with none.
 
Speaking of sim checks, I flew with a F/O a few years ago that was an intern at United while she was at college. After graduating she had an interview with them at a very low TT. She said that she blew the sim portion of the interview. I said "what did you do, not ask for a ride report?" OBTW, she flies excellent and is a great person.
 
Are you looking at possibily hiring someone with 1000TT to do something specific for you? Or are you asking, how does one with about 1000TT get hired?

If you're the one doing the hiring, I'm sure you're looking for the best overall qualified individual, and in this market that individual probably has much more time than that. I would say attend job fairs as a potential employer, collect resumes of qualified applicants while informally talking to them, call in the ones you feel would be a good fit for your operation and interview them. "Qualified" means possessing the necessary certificates/ratings/medical, ability to pass a criminal records check, able to fly your airplane(s) per FARs and insurance carrier, and any other requirements you may outline/desire. If you have access to a sim, put 'em through the wringer to see if their flying ability and knowledge is commensurate with what their logbooks show. Maybe have some HR types talk with the applicants also, to make sure they'd be a good employee (not just pilot) for you. As far as checkride failures go, it can be as much as a deal breaker as you want it to be, but if someone has a solid training history but dorked one thing up on one checkride when they had 40 hours TT, it's probably not your biggest concern. However, if someone has a pattern of failures from multiple evaluators, then it may be more of an issue. BTW, not everyone who flies professionally has taken their CFI, so a failure on that ride wouldn't be very relavent to me (unless I was looking to hire an instructor to teach for me).

I guess it would be easier to answer if I knew why you were asking.
 
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