here's a weird taf...

ldubsgmoney

Well-Known Member
Given the following from a TAF : KXXX 1218/1324 1
1/2 SM -RA BR OVC 007.
What is the meaning of 1218/1324?
This airport has multiple ILS approaches to 200' DA and 1800 RVR. Could
it be used as an alternate airport? Assume the given forecast is for
your ETA at that airport as an alternate.

anyone ever seen something like this before?

thanks.
 

surreal1221

Well-Known Member
Yes, the TAF format has recently changed to a 30 hour format for certain airports.

1218/1324 reflects the valid times for the TAF. The 12th day of the current month at 1800Z to the 13th day of the current month to 2400Z.

What type of operation are you flying, part 91, part 135, or part 121? If one of the later two, what do your OpSpecs say about using an airport as an alternate?
 

BobDDuck

Island Bus Driver
Right... because TAFs were SO accurate in their 24 hour form they decided to extend them to 36 hours.
 

surreal1221

Well-Known Member
Right... because TAFs were SO accurate in their 24 hour form they decided to extend them to 36 hours.
You taken a tour of a WFO to see what tools and data they utilize to formulate the final product?

If not, I suggest you do when you have some free time.

Just like passengers who have ZERO piloting experience think we just sit up up front and talk on the radio and push buttons. . .
 

gne in prog

Well-Known Member
You taken a tour of a WFO to see what tools and data they utilize to formulate the final product?

If not, I suggest you do when you have some free time.

Just like passengers who have ZERO piloting experience think we just sit up up front and talk on the radio and push buttons. . .
and just like uninformed passengers who can still tell if the flight was successful or not, most uninformed pilots can tell if the forecast was successful or not.
 

surreal1221

Well-Known Member
Obviously. . .wasn't my point.

A lot goes into the production of a TAF, of course it's easy to say "Oh that TAF sucked," especially if you haven't taken the time to see what work goes into producing the end product. That will get amended as conditions warrent.

TAFs have to stay within category, and that's essentially what they forecast - categories of aviation requirements for specific approaches.

Nevertheless, was only a suggestion to take a few moments and tour a WFO. I'm not going to go into TAF production here for people that it seems really wouldn't care.
 

jhugz

#lighttwin Mafia
Obviously. . .wasn't my point.

A lot goes into the production of a TAF, of course it's easy to say "Oh that TAF sucked," especially if you haven't taken the time to see what work goes into producing the end product. That will get amended as conditions warrent.

TAFs have to stay within category, and that's essentially what they forecast - categories of aviation requirements for specific approaches.

Nevertheless, was only a suggestion to take a few moments and tour a WFO. I'm not going to go into TAF production here for people that it seems really wouldn't care.
TAF's are a forecast nothing more nothing less...I completely agree that 36 hours is wayyyy to long for an accurate forecast, but it does serve a purpose for trends etc.
 

surreal1221

Well-Known Member
Forecast that are designed for the customer (aviation users). The purpose for a forecast is to acurately (key word) make a prognosis on the atmospheric conditions at a location at a specific time. Not to indicate trends. I don't forecast trends, I forecast atmospheric conditions at a specific point and time.

Which is why we have amendments to products as new data comes out. The 18-36hr forecast period is one of the toughest periods to forecast in a mesoscale environment. It's difficult, no matter how good the data is.

It's the forecasters fault the data is crap, or that the ICAO says all terminal aerodrome forecasts need to be 36 hour forecast products, or that the FAA and the NWS agree?

As far as the length of the product, blame the ICAO.

As far as the quality of the product, don't be so quick to blame the forecaster - especially if you lack any first hand experience in aviation weather forecasting, or haven't even taken the time to visit a WFO.

That's like me blaming my mail lady for the inefficiencies in the US Postal system.
 
R

Roger, Roger

Guest
Point of order....the new TAF is 30 hours, not 36.
http://aviationweather.gov/notice/taf30.php
And my understanding is that the extension has less to do with increased accuracy than with the desire to conform to ICAO for those airports with large numbers of international flights.
 

ladder360

Well-Known Member
Not to get off topic -but as a matter of interest- does anyone know why WX reports still use the coded/abbreviated format they've been using since the Wright brothers were breast feeding? I would think with modern technology, the format would have evolved to be more user friendly. Not that it's all that difficult, but I don't see the benefit for the abbreviated format in today's world.

Anyone know?
 

surreal1221

Well-Known Member
Not to get off topic -but as a matter of interest- does anyone know why WX reports still use the coded/abbreviated format they've been using since the Wright brothers were breast feeding? I would think with modern technology, the format would have evolved to be more user friendly. Not that it's all that difficult, but I don't see the benefit for the abbreviated format in today's world.

Anyone know?
The worldwide weather community is why.

Believe it or not, some countries still have dial up and computer technology that Western civilizations would consider out-dated.

As such, abbreviations that are standard to the world community - thanks to the ICAO and the WMO (World Meteorology Organization) - continue to be utilized.

Data transmission can be a large part of the issue, and with such abbreviations countries who are using out-dated (by our standards) technology or who rely on fax machines and tele-type systems to get their information and disseminate their information can still play an active role in the global meteorological community.
 

ladder360

Well-Known Member
The worldwide weather community is why.

Believe it or not, some countries still have dial up and computer technology that Western civilizations would consider out-dated.

As such, abbreviations that are standard to the world community - thanks to the ICAO and the WMO (World Meteorology Organization) - continue to be utilized.

Data transmission can be a large part of the issue, and with such abbreviations countries who are using out-dated (by our standards) technology or who rely on fax machines and tele-type systems to get their information and disseminate their information can still play an active role in the global meteorological community.
Ah-ha! That would make sense. Thanks man!
 

BobDDuck

Island Bus Driver
What is it with people getting on their high horses today?

Josh, yes I've actually spent a fair amount of time in the BOS WFO as well as visited the Wilmington WFO. I understand how the data is taken and formed into a TAF and my comment was more towards the viability of the 30 hour data then the actual forecast generation.
 

SteveC

Really?
Staff member
Forecast that are designed for the customer (aviation users). The purpose for a forecast is to acurately (key word) make a prognosis on the atmospheric conditions at a location at a specific time. Not to indicate trends. I don't forecast trends, I forecast atmospheric conditions at a specific point and time.

Which is why we have amendments to products as new data comes out. The 18-36hr forecast period is one of the toughest periods to forecast in a mesoscale environment. It's difficult, no matter how good the data is.

It's the forecasters fault the data is crap, or that the ICAO says all terminal aerodrome forecasts need to be 36 hour forecast products, or that the FAA and the NWS agree?

As far as the length of the product, blame the ICAO.

As far as the quality of the product, don't be so quick to blame the forecaster - especially if you lack any first hand experience in aviation weather forecasting, or haven't even taken the time to visit a WFO.

That's like me blaming my mail lady for the inefficiencies in the US Postal system.
I'm not seeing where anyone blamed the forecaster. Why so sensitive?
 

OldTownPilot

Well-Known Member
I invite anyone to come to coastal Maine and forecast the weather. With the fog and the mountains that we get here, I don't trust anyone with the forecast.

Example, yesterday, at 11AM BHB was supposed to be SCT250 until 4pm. At 1130 when I got to the airport it was OVC025 and light rain that stayed all day. You think I'm going to believe the TAF for tomorrow morning, when it get an hour away right? 99% of the time they use the TAF at BGR for BHB. 99% of the time thats wrong

I'm sure that there are places that 30 hour forecasts work well, mostly in the desert. Up here the old wives tales work better at predicting the weather than all the whiz bang technology put together.
 

butt

New Member
Not to get off topic -but as a matter of interest- does anyone know why WX reports still use the coded/abbreviated format they've been using since the Wright brothers were breast feeding? I would think with modern technology, the format would have evolved to be more user friendly. Not that it's all that difficult, but I don't see the benefit for the abbreviated format in today's world.

Anyone know?
Just curious, is you were in charge of changing the TAFs and METARS to a more user friendly format, what would you change?
 
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