Help end the Cargo Carve-Out

There have existed for years, studies and research from the negative effects of just working night shifts, let alone doing so with time changes and longer work shifts and performing a highly technical job where SI is paramount. Pilot fatigue is pilot fatigue and doesn't disappear because you are moving goods and not people..

You aren't kidding. We just aren't engineered to be up at night. Fatigue is very real, both acute as well as chronic. I can attest to that as I work graves pretty much exclusively. For me, added to the night time, there is the fatigue generated from the strain of looking through NVGs the whole time, in a fatigue producing aircraft like a helicopter (noise/vibe), flying low level and in difficult terrain and conditions/situations. I can feel myself mentally worn out from the middle of the mission on, especially when nothing is really going on. And that's regardless of how much sleep I got during the day or before the shift. The return leg of the flight, when I can climb to altitude and raise the NVGs, the sheer relief felt from the hours of constant eye strain, and the added fatigue that produces, is noticably appparent. Have had numerous missions where the other crewmember and I just try to talk about anything or sometimes try to find something to do, just to keep each other awake.

In my agency, we've already had one takeoff accident at KNZY about 6 years ago of a fixed wing, with chronic fatigue of the 3-person crew as a primary causal factor, what with the things they missed during taxi out, lineup, and takeoff; they were so fatigued during the second launch of the grave shift, they were literally zombies operating on a "mental autopilot" of sorts, going through the rote motions of the checklists, but missing huge things happening around them. Was very interesting, enlightening, and sobering, all at the same time, as the onion of that accident was peeled back, and the findings brought to light.

Back in my old airframe, the F-117, fatigue....along with spatial disorientation.....was the primary killer there too, suspected as causal factors in 3 fatal accidents. All night, all back side of the clock, which is where we primarily flew operationally.
 
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Circadian rhythms are very real and should be more highly regarded in the industry. I have worked for 2 companies that respect the fact that working at night is fatiguing and against normal sleep patterns, it is fantastic.
 
Thanks for all the support. My union is suing the FAA over this issue (part 117). Not sure what this latest move by CAPA is all about but perhaps it's a final push for something going on behind the scenes.

What about fatigue call policy? Where I work they will say there is a non-punitive fatigue call policy. They encourage safety and rest on the non-punitive nature of of their FAA approved fatigue mitigation program. However, you have to fill out a report and your case will be reviewed. You must prove the merits of your case in the report otherwise they dock your sick leave. That's like taking money out of your pocket as we get paid for sick leave we don't use. How does it work at your place? What's your experience been with fatigue calls?
 
I would argue that any company that has you fill out a report to review on a case by case basis (almost every company I know of in the 121 world does this) is not a true non-punitive fatigue policy. If you have to prove to somebody sitting in a desk why you were fatigued, they have the power to disapprove it for any reason they feel. This also prevents possible fatigue calls that are legitimate due to the worry that it won't get approved, and you have money taken away. Not a good way to ensure employees that they don't have to fly tired.

At NetJets, we can fatigue no questions asked with no paperwork to fill out. The tinfoil hat wearers will say that if you fatigue, you get punished the next day by being given a crappy schedule. I have not fatigued yet but I have been with a captain that has fatigued, and our next day schedule was totally normal and typical.
 
Time changes and hard work are such a brutal combo. Especially when you zig zag across the country or worse. All at the whim of scheduling, and when you are a west coast guy who gets an early show on the east coast, then a 14 hour day, it is a recipe for fatigue. Compound that by doing the same thing for multiple days in a row.
 
Thanks for all the support. My union is suing the FAA over this issue (part 117). Not sure what this latest move by CAPA is all about but perhaps it's a final push for something going on behind the scenes.

What about fatigue call policy? Where I work they will say there is a non-punitive fatigue call policy. They encourage safety and rest on the non-punitive nature of of their FAA approved fatigue mitigation program. However, you have to fill out a report and your case will be reviewed. You must prove the merits of your case in the report otherwise they dock your sick leave. That's like taking money out of your pocket as we get paid for sick leave we don't use. How does it work at your place? What's your experience been with fatigue calls?
Didn't you guys start that lawsuit like four years ago? What's been the progress thus far? Since 1990, there have been 14 U.S. cargo plane crashes involving fatigue. Had these been planes full of pax, freight pilots wouldn't be in the situation they find themselves in with the work/fatigue rules. What's the lives of a few commercial pilots here and there worth? Apparently, not much. I know that I worry over my son. Bad enough he's been flying without a damn contract for several years now.
 
Didn't you guys start that lawsuit like four years ago? What's been the progress thus far? Since 1990, there have been 14 U.S. cargo plane crashes involving fatigue. Had these been planes full of pax, freight pilots wouldn't be in the situation they find themselves in with the work/fatigue rules. I know that I worry over my son. Bad enough he's been flying without a damn contract for several years now.
If that last UPS crash at BHM had been 50-100 feet lower and taken out the neighborhood, we wouldn't even have to worry about the cargo cut out. We would still be talking about that crash. Unfortunately "only" two lives were lost. So no big deal, just cargo pilots. :(
 
Martin, I have now (been working on this a few days) sent out the link with an explanation by email to a huge list of friends, business contacts, family, employees, former co-workers and even clients. You name it, I sent them one. I have also asked everyone in the email to pass it on to everyone they can/know like a chain mail and hopefully we can all generate some good here.

It's ridiculous that freight carriers were exempted from the new rules to begin with. Same aircraft, same routes, same airspace, same airports. What's worse is all the backside of the clock flying that the majority of cargo pilots have to contend with continuously that many pax pilots do not. Add to that the time zone changes and it's really wearing mentally, physically and psychologically on a person. The freight companies can damn well afford to do the right thing, but without the FAA being pressured to get off their collective asses, they won't.

There have existed for years, studies and research from the negative effects of just working night shifts, let alone doing so with time changes and longer work shifts and performing a highly technical job where SI is paramount. Pilot fatigue is pilot fatigue and doesn't disappear because you are moving goods and not people. How anyone can not believe that the science which created the rest/duty rules for pax pilots cannot apply to freight pilots, is beyond me. It makes as much sense as leaving the rules as an option for companies. Really? Safety and the health/well being of a business's employees are an option? That must be why all the cargo carriers rushed forward to use the option and apply them to their employees and do the right thing. Like this would ever happen.

What's funny is that, quite literally, I can fly a passenger jet one day, and while I'm not legal to operate that same passenger out, I can hop on one of our freighters and be perfectly legal.

This is not an uncommon occurrence here.
 
What's funny is that, quite literally, I can fly a passenger jet one day, and while I'm not legal to operate that same passenger out, I can hop on one of our freighters and be perfectly legal.

This is not an uncommon occurrence here.
It's happened more than once to me. Usually occurs after a big theater change on a pax trip. You'll usually require 3 local nights rest before you operate another passenger leg, but instead they'll toss you on the freighter the next day.
 
It's happened more than once to me. Usually occurs after a big theater change on a pax trip. You'll usually require 3 local nights rest before you operate another passenger leg, but instead they'll toss you on the freighter the next day.

All the while the cargo runs you're flying count as "rest" for the purposes of FAR 117 because you aren't flying pax?
 
You aren't kidding. We just aren't engineered to be up at night. Fatigue is very real, both acute as well as chronic. I can attest to that as I work graves pretty much exclusively. For me, added to the night time, there is the fatigue generated from the strain of looking through NVGs the whole time, in a fatigue producing aircraft like a helicopter (noise/vibe), flying low level and in difficult terrain and conditions/situations. I can feel myself mentally worn out from the middle of the mission on, especially when nothing is really going on. And that's regardless of how much sleep I got during the day or before the shift. The return leg of the flight, when I can climb to altitude and raise the NVGs, the sheer relief felt from the hours of constant eye strain, and the added fatigue that produces, is noticably appparent. Have had numerous missions where the other crewmember and I just try to talk about anything or sometimes try to find something to do, just to keep each other awake.

In my agency, we've already had one takeoff accident at KNZY about 6 years ago of a fixed wing, with chronic fatigue of the 3-person crew as a primary causal factor, what with the things they missed during taxi out, lineup, and takeoff; they were so fatigued during the second launch of the grave shift, they were literally zombies operating on a "mental autopilot" of sorts, going through the rote motions of the checklists, but missing huge things happening around them. Was very interesting, enlightening, and sobering, all at the same time, as the onion of that accident was peeled back, and the findings brought to light.

Back in my old airframe, the F-117, fatigue....along with spatial disorientation.....was the primary killer there too, suspected as causal factors in 3 fatal accidents. All night, all back side of the clock, which is where we primarily flew operationally.
I seriously don't know how you or anyone manages to fly helicopters all night long over various ever changing terrains, canyons, mountains, all sorts of obstacles, limited visibility while looking for "bad guys" and nefarious goings on, have to be constantly on top of your game and stay as safe as you do. It is so completely foreign and seems ten times more difficult than what the rest of us have done/do and we have extra pilots aboard for long hauls, get rest breaks and we are still often tired as hell and semi-brain dead.
 
Thanks for all the support. My union is suing the FAA over this issue (part 117). Not sure what this latest move by CAPA is all about but perhaps it's a final push for something going on behind the scenes.

Is ALPA suing over this on behalf of Fedex too?
 
MikeD said:
Is ALPA suing over this on behalf of Fedex too?

Absolutely not! The IPA lawsuit is a stupendously bad idea that, because of how the regulatory mechanism work, could result in the entire FAR 117 regulation being thrown out if the IPA is successful. They never should have filed it, but as is always the case with independent "unions," they only care about their own situation instead of the rest of the profession.

Lobbying is the way to fix the cargo carve out. Not litigation.
 
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