Hello and Help!

Re: The Ameriflight program

I think people who are just starting get way too wrapped up about flight time. Yes total time and multi time is important. But the quality of that time is what really matters.

Flying as a FO on a turbo prop or a CRJ is not an entree level position in avaition. (at least not today!) What a potential employer wants to see is that another company found you qualified, payed you, and trusted you to fly their equipment.

This usually takes the form of flight instruction, though not always. Buying a FO slot, purchasing blocks of twin time, or flying your moms citation, only shows that you have a fat wallet or a cool mother.
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Re: The Ameriflight program

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This usually takes the form of flight instruction, though not always. Buying a FO slot, purchasing blocks of twin time, or flying your moms citation, only shows that you have a fat wallet or a cool mother.

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I completely agree with aviator here. I have heard from many people that the airlines like to see that someone has had some time as a flight instructor because in effect you are the captain of the flight everytime you go up with your student. You are showing that you can lead in a crew environment and that you can take responsibility and make wise decisions for the safety of the flight.

Airlines don't hire f.o.'s, they hire future captains.
 
Re: The Ameriflight program

This is all so great! Thank you. We need to hear as much input as possible so we can make a really good decision. So am I understanding correctly that GulfStream and Ameriflight are the PFT programs that you guys are a little against, but that Delta or Pan Am would not be a PFT and that those schools are ok? Or are you against ALL the schools?
 
Re: The Ameriflight program

Personally, I think there is a big difference between the way Ameriflight and Gulfstream have set up their PFT programs with Gulfstream being the one he wants to stay away from, for sure. The other places you mention are just large, academy type, flight schools...that isn't PFT....even though it sounds like it.
 
PilotCR and Wife,

I hate to be Dr. Laura here but the first thing you must consider is your child. The fact that you would even consider giving Ameriflight $29500 to be a "ATIS copier" is appalling. Here are some things to consider... The Ameriflight "SIC" program was designed for 19-year old trust fund babies, Not people with a 15 month old. Yeah, you get to put "750" hours in your logbook, but you will have ZERO income for 9-10 months while you do it. It's fine for you to live on Ramen noodles but what about your wife and kid. Now after a year of no income you have the "Magic 1000 hours". Well guess what, 1000 hours is far from magic. If you think the regionals are going to be drooling over your "750 hours of beech 99 time" you should go wait in line at an AIRInc job fair behind 200 pilots waiting to give Comair a resume that has words like Delta, US Airways, United, Continental, and American in their employment section.

Going to one of the big pilot factories is a better idea but do you really want to give $60,000 to a place like the "Delta Connection Academy" that has a slogans like " Regional Airlines are growing at an unprecedented pace. Between now and the year 2005, most established airlines will retire up to 50% of their current pilots. This will create an estimated 30,000 new openings in the cockpit. " on their website. I mean come on, I've seen used car dealerships with more integrity.

I applaud your decision to raise a family, and that is your number one obligation. You made the decision to have a family and it has its consequences both good and bad. Unfortunately it will make your career ambitions more difficult because you still need to support your family while you do your flight training. Anyway, right now there is no rush. Pilot hiring will be very slow for some time to come. Most Majors and many Regionals will not be hiring any new pilots for the rest of this decade. So don't make any drastic changes yet. Find a good 141 flight school, that has a good chance of hiring you after you finish your CFI/CFII. Preferably one close to where you currently live, so you could train and continue to work and support your family. Then build experience as a paid professional flight instructor. You will build flight time but more importantly you will build relationships with fellow instructors and students that will help you make it to an airline. Because in this industry it's not so much your TT and what you know but who you know. The airlines have always used and will continue to use the good-old-boy system to recruit the vast majority of their pilots. One good option for you may be to apply to a Regional as a gate agent/ramper while your work on your CFI, building connections and flight time. What about moving up to SLC working for SkyWest and finishing up your training there?

Well, good luck in what ever you decide to do, but always remember to put your family first!
 
I'm glad you posted that.

Airlines are no place to raise a family. Especially entry level like commuters. You will see your family once or twice a month for a long time.

Me? I like being home and listening to my daughter starting to put sentences together. I wouldn't miss it for the world. Especially not to be a low paid, no respect, flying bus driver.

I know people will jump on me, but I would suggest excelling in your current career and keep aviation as an enjoyable hobby. Then it will stay enjoyable! Once you fly for an airline for 6 months or so it really becomes another job and you start looking at other alternatives. Oh yeah the flying is great don't get me wrong, but here are some downsides:

1) Commuting (HUGE!)
2) Low pay
3) Overnights away from home
4) Long duty days
5) No privacy to speak of. (People watch pilots now.)
6) Security aka the TSA Nazis
7) No planning ability (your schedule changes month to month.)

7 is probably the worst. You can forget planning a vacation. You have to bid your vacation weeks about 3 months in advance and you never know what weeks you will get unless you happen to be #1 in seniority. Even then, vacations are often cancelled due to crew shortages.

Now if you can get in to a management pilot position, well then we are talking about a better lifestyle, although lots more stress.
 
Gee, with all the postive things that you have to say about airline flying, I can't even imagine things you would say about flight instructing, if that were the "holy grail" of aviation, so-to-speak.
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You can forget planning a vacation. You have to bid your vacation weeks about 3 months in advance and you never know what weeks you will get unless you happen to be #1 in seniority. Even then, vacations are often cancelled due to crew shortages.

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Most of the professional pilots I know spend their vacations at home. After travelling around all the time, the last thing they want to do is get BACK on an airplane and fly somewhere. However, their families, who have been sitting at home all the time, haven't left the house in ages...
 
Wow, youg guys are getting a little excited. While we appreciate advice and input, I think sometimes it's better to ask questions instead of making assumptions. [ QUOTE ]
but you will have ZERO income for 9-10 months

[/ QUOTE ] Income is not a problem, you were pretty qucik to assume that. You have no idea if we have savings up the wazoo, suportive families, or perhaps I am a phone sex operator making $4.99 a minute from home? Regardless, income is not a problem, we are in the clear there. [ QUOTE ]
The fact that you would even consider giving Ameriflight $29500 to be a "ATIS copier" is appalling.

[/ QUOTE ] Well, we are still in the learning phase and that is why we are asking for some input. No need to be insulting when you offer someone advice. [ QUOTE ]
What about moving up to SLC working for SkyWest

[/ QUOTE ] This is an option, but not one we are leaning towards. Give me some more insight here, but this is how I feel about it. What we have dealt with at the local airport so far, is what leads me to this opinion. I would rather my husband be in a structured supportive environment like Delta Academy, then be at a local airport where you have to fight weather, instructors who wish they were doing something else, and flaky schedulers. I can't even tell you how many times a flight has been cancelled due to a down plane, a mistake on the schedule, or mother nature. He schedules 5 flights a week but usually only gets 2. We have been dealing with this for about oh, 8 years now. It's dragging on too long, and our income will run out fast. I would rather have him at a place with more reliability, and get done in about 18 months, then drag this on as a side hobby for the next 10 years. I also feel like there are more opportunies in FL. If SkyWest doesn't want him when he is all done then we are moving anyway, and if we were to move to SL then why not FL where I can be near my family AND the opportunities are more abundent?

He is passionate about flying and it's what he wants most in life next to me. I knew when I met him that he would be gone a lot, I knew when I married, I knew when we had a son. When your marriage is on a solid foundation you have a good chance at surving with a spouse gone a lot. I have heard from just as many peoplpe that have families and the woves say it's a great lifestyle etc. as I have heard from people who think it's not.

Our son has never been anything less then our first priority, but that does not interferre with my husband being able to do what he dreams. Who wants a 9-5 M-F desk job in a dark cubicle where you sit in front of a computer screen all day? We are going for it, and no comments that any one makes will changes our minds about this being his career, and not just a hobby. We are just asking for insight as to which route to take to get there. Thanks.
 
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Gee, with all the postive things that you have to say about airline flying, I can't even imagine things you would say about flight instructing, if that were the "holy grail" of aviation, so-to-speak.
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Now ESF you know me better
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I actually love being a CFI. I am home every night and I get the joy of teaching someone how to fly!

I have a lot more respect for a 1000 hr CFI than I do for those 1000 hr wonders that Amerijet pumps out. A CFI knows a lot more about aviation than someone who just rides along. As you know, in order to really teach something, you have to really learn it!

Everyone here always concentrates on the "glory of airline flying" as if it's some "holy grail."

I am merely showing the other side of the coin. If you are young, single, with no young children, then I would say go for the airlines just to have the experience.

Maybe you'll choose the right airline and make it to that 6 figure income and not get furloughed, or have your airline go under.

jetBlue looks pretty good right now.
 
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instructors who wish they were doing something else

[/ QUOTE ] Sorry to say it but most (not ALL but some) CFI's arent doing what they really want to do, I found this out through all the CFI's I have instructedme or known. Most are just building hours for the majors (dont know if thats the case in you're town). Take me for example, I am a CFI in Corpus Christi, TX and being a CFI is not really my dream job, and though I do enjoy it, if I had a choice I would probally doing something else (flying for an airline for example).

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This is an option, but not one we are leaning towards.

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As far as SLC goes, in my opinion its the best shot. I have heard they have nice training facilities in the areaand you dont have to move out of state (I have moved out of state so many times and I know its not that fun). You ofcourse have downsides to it, but trully speaking I do think its you're best shot!
 
Oh, I know. I'm just messing with you. I've got no interest in flying for the airlines whatsoever anyways. Talk to you tomorrow night probably...
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Michelle:

Wow, you've only been a member for a few hours, but you're holding your own with the vets. Go get 'em.

Your first post ask for advice, and mentions a list of schools. My two cents are...
Take a look at ATP. I had many reasons for going through their career pilot program, but the big ones were the following (may or may not be important to you).

1. Reputation (industry leader, 19 years in business
2. Value -- great price and lots of multi-engine time (important later)
3. Time -- 90 days (and believe it or not, it could have been quicker)
4. Well maintained airplanes (probably the best in the industry)

Visit several schools. Make sure you talk to the grad's.
 
We have gone back and forth on ATP a few times. Tell me what you think of this:

We thought it sounded great and at first the plan was to go to ATP and then finish at GS. (GS is most likely out now due to how we feel about it). Then his instructor went to take a test in LV and it was like a full day thing where you get some training and then test. I don't remember all the details, but I know he left about half way through and was irritated at how they misrepresented the training. He said it was like a one man operation. I assume the schools would be better then this testing center, but it still made me nervous about the professionalism. I also wondered if it's only a 90 thing, how well do you really retain the knowledge? We definitely like well maintained planes though. How do you feel about that? DO you feel it was professional and that you got your money's worth? What did you do after? Go right to instructing? Thanks!

Oh, and by the way- [ QUOTE ]
but you're holding your own with the vets

[/ QUOTE ] And to think, I am just a 23 year old high school drop out.
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LOL
 
I don't know the details of your instructor's visit to LV. ATP doesn't offer one day training. Might be the one-day ATP written test -- a one day computerized test-prep and then written test. ATP management takes professionalism very seriously. Go to their website and look at the student testimonials. http://lasso.pilotjobs.com/testimonials/index.html

The 90 days sounds fast, but it isn't. Think of it this way. You are immersed in the program (eat and sleep flying). You fly frequently, so you don't forget what you learned on the last lesson. Your retention would probably be worse if you were only flying 20-30 minutes a day on average.

The 90 day program is hard work, and you have to be disciplined and dedicated to succeed (most are). You can still take some some down time with the family, picnics, drives, etc. You can study by the poolside, get your daily exercise. Just keep you focus on the program for 90 days and the rewards are great.

Currently, I'm working as a Multi-engine instructor in the Northwest. It wasn't until my first day as an instructor, that I really appreciated how good the ATP training was while I was a student. I have total confidence training both Private and ATP pilots.
 
You are right, the test my instructor was taking was a one day test prep and exam for the ATP rating. I was looking for more information on ATP's 90 day program so I tagged along, plus I needed a x-country, so why not? Anyway we get there and there is one instructor in a little satellite office that sets him up on a computer and tells him to just run through all the questions in the test bank like 3 times and he should be ready to go. In my opinion (as well as my instructor's) a person would be able to do this just as easily at home in front of their own computer. I felt it wasn't really what I would expect for the time and money spent. (Just my opinion though) Meanwhile I talked with the instructor down there for about an hour, and while I appreciate the fact that he wasn't making unrealistic promises, and was trying to paint a "real" picture of what the industry is doing as of late, I got the distinct vibe that he was almost trying to talk me out of taking on flying as a career choice. I mean, I have definitley heard some less than favorable outlooks, but this guy made it sound like if you weren't already in the airlines, you would never, ever, get hired. I am not saying that he was rude, less than accomadating, or that he didn't know what he was talking about, in fact quite the opposite. I just have not talked to somone that down on the industry period. Those are the few reasons I kind of put ATP on the back burner so to speak.
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Just thought I'd give my $.02...

Have you considered Mesa Airlines Pilot Development, aka MAPD which is run through San Juan College in FMN? There are A LOT of misconceptions about the programs offerred but all of their programs are solid. I would reccomend the PACE program having successfully completed it. Currently I'm sitting in a 1900 GS with two other PACE students and I know of two other PACE guys starting monday in a jet groundschool. The PACE program is that you come in with your ratings off the street (i.e., get to keep your better paying job and nights at home while chasing ratings) and then you go to Farmington, NM for about 2.5 months to train in a baron and then go home and wait for your slot in the 1900 sim and 6 hrs in the actual 1900 (they have been advertising for a long time now that their jet sim is coming but until it is delivered don't count on it). Anyhow, speaking from experience, the training is very good in taking your flying skills from competent but fbo-ish to airline standards (you can fly to ATP standards and are used to running checklists and procedures in a 121 cockpit environment). Upon completion of the program you are guaranteed an interview with Mesa Air Group. Nothing more, nothing less. You will be interviewing with off the street pilots and the questions are just as tough/easy as their questions. Whether you get the job or not depends on how well you interview. Typically there will be an interview where everyone gets hired and then the next 4-6 out of 15-20 won't get hired because they assumed it was a gimme. All they are doing is waiving the prehire quals for the graduates since they have had a much lower washout rate in groundschools with MAPD grads than with off the street hires (read a more economical route for the company). Groundschool is the same for MAPD as off the street. The nice thing is FMN is close to SLC for you guys, you aren't PFTing it (some will debate this), and if you study hard you can get a 121 job with one of the few regionals who is 1) hiring, and 2) growing like crazy (with all associated growing pains as JT probably knows all about). Anyways look into it. And if you do go that route don't let it swell your head and keep a low profile; the Sanjuaners (or Sanwhiners as we're known) that are disliked are the ones who are the ones who think they're chuck yeager and let everyone know it. Good luck.

Good luck


MAPD's website: www.flightcareers.com
 
Thanks for the link to mapd. I had looked into this program, (infact, my instructor had recommended it to me) but the website I went to had a FAQ that explained that it was a full 2 year program, and that even if you already had flight experience you still had to repeat it all over again. I see now that what I looked into was the ab-initio program. I had heard they had a different program where that wasn't the case, but just couldn't find any info on it. Thanks.
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Welcome aboard PilotCR & TheWife!

Boy Pilot, wife sounds great that she is backing so much. Good luck to you!
 
Thank you, that's very nice. I hope you all are getting support at home as well...he supports my work at home jobs so it's only fair.
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PS-I wanna move to FL and be near my mommy so would you all stop recommending these other schools that are NOT in FL!!
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JK.
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