BEEF SUPREME
Well-Known Member
I think a lot of time has been spent on AOA and it isn't really central to why the aircraft crashed. That is all.
Hawker Down near AKR
- Thread starter ComplexHiAv8r
- Start date
I think a lot of time has been spent on AOA and it isn't really central to why the aircraft crashed. That is all.
Inverted
mmmmmm wine
It literally has nothing to do with the crash.
SpiceWeasel
Tre Kronor
It should be ignored at altitude as it doesn't provide accurate information. We had guys writing brand new CRJ-900s up for a split in the green line between instruments. Again, it's not accurate; ignore it, pay attention to the snakes.
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
Again, third time, we know and agree...sidebar conversation.
I disagree. It's something that lets you know you are getting slow. Yeah, the snakes really really matter. But when I see that green line come up at altitude, in cruise, it's telling me that if I don't perk up and pay attention, bad things could happen.
In any regime of flight, it shouldn't be ignored. In some regimes, it's just a bigger issue.
///AMG
Well-Known Member
CRM also has nothing to do with AoA gauges.
BEEF SUPREME
Well-Known Member
Standardized procedures are a big part of CRM however. I think I'm just speaking a different language or there is some kind of disturbance in the force.
///AMG
Well-Known Member
Not a different language, though my CRM techniques are probably somewhat different than those of crewed aircraft. Same idea, slightly different execution. The force is still strong
BEEF SUPREME
Well-Known Member
Not a different language, though my CRM techniques are probably somewhat different than those of crewed aircraft. Same idea, slightly different execution. The force is still strong
MikeOH58
Well-Known Member
New jet has tripled in weight(and cost) yet someone forgot the AOA indexer. Argh.
Seriously, anyone bashing AOA has either never used it or was not taught how to use it correctly.
Ever wonder why the jet is behind the power curve and takes forever to accelerate when transitioning from climb to cruise, even though you are staying above the cutoff speed some Joe Schmoe told
you never to get below while climbing? AOA fixes this and works every time.
Ever wonder why your calculated VREF always seem to be off? AOA fixes this and works every time. And the list goes on...
Seriously, anyone bashing AOA has either never used it or was not taught how to use it correctly.
Ever wonder why the jet is behind the power curve and takes forever to accelerate when transitioning from climb to cruise, even though you are staying above the cutoff speed some Joe Schmoe told
you never to get below while climbing? AOA fixes this and works every time.
Ever wonder why your calculated VREF always seem to be off? AOA fixes this and works every time. And the list goes on...
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
Wait, are we seriously implying an AOA type gauge will prevent these things? Even if it beeps, how is it any different than the current technology to prevent stalls?
First, the assumption is the pilot sees this AOA gauge in his scan to deduce what is wrong. That's assuming he looks at in the first place when things are going wrong. And if he's got the presence of mind to look at the AOA gauge, then for all practical purposes in the airline world of normal flight operations, watching his airspeed in the first place would have prevented it. Second, if it's beeping as a warning that AOA is exceeding critical values, how is that any different than stick shakers (tactile feedback!) that a stall is imminent? Or an Airbus yelling at you, "STALL STALL STALL" [annoying horn blare] "STALL STALL STALL" [annoying horn blare. That happened on Air France and Air Asia.
I guess I just don't see how the AOA gauge will somehow prevent these things from happening. We already have visual, tactile, and aural feedback for an impending stall.
First, the assumption is the pilot sees this AOA gauge in his scan to deduce what is wrong. That's assuming he looks at in the first place when things are going wrong. And if he's got the presence of mind to look at the AOA gauge, then for all practical purposes in the airline world of normal flight operations, watching his airspeed in the first place would have prevented it. Second, if it's beeping as a warning that AOA is exceeding critical values, how is that any different than stick shakers (tactile feedback!) that a stall is imminent? Or an Airbus yelling at you, "STALL STALL STALL" [annoying horn blare] "STALL STALL STALL" [annoying horn blare. That happened on Air France and Air Asia.
I guess I just don't see how the AOA gauge will somehow prevent these things from happening. We already have visual, tactile, and aural feedback for an impending stall.
You don't need to look at the gauge. The gauge itself is for enroute, not approach/landing. You look at either an indexer that's atop the dash, or a digital caret that's overlaid on the airspeed tape, of so equipped with either.
Saying its useless in civil aviation is pretty much bashing, when there is a use for it as a primary or confirming item. Is it a need to have? No. Is it a very nice to have? Yes it is. But people have to know about how it works first, or be willing to learn something new, before summarily dismissing it.
Planes have been, and still, fly safely without TCAS. It's a very nice to have too, but certainly not something that if not present, will mean an automatic midair.
digduggy
Well-Known Member
Dudes... You guys need to seriously lay off this AOA crap... They could have had a thousand AOA guages in front of them and it would not have saved them...
On a side note, I wonder if there was a language barrier, would I be wrong in assuming two ESL's in the pointy end? One italian, one from, was it Bolivia or Columbia?
Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
On a side note, I wonder if there was a language barrier, would I be wrong in assuming two ESL's in the pointy end? One italian, one from, was it Bolivia or Columbia?
Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
Inverted
mmmmmm wine
I have AOA, I know how it works, and I was willing to learn something new. What I am telling you, is that monitoring AOA takes a scan, and if you don't look at it, it does nothing for you. If you can't hold airspeed, or hold an ILS, then AOA ain't gonna help.
"Dude", no one here is saying it would or wouldn't have saved them.
It's a sidebar discussion. Keep up.
digduggy
Well-Known Member
Its become 80+ percent of it since the docket was opened.... *been keeping up* while conversation goes round and round.
Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
Agree in part. So far as these guys, they had far more problems unrelated to instrumentation, that another gauge to have to see wouldn't have likely fixed. Agree there.
But for others, just as a reference, modern day AOA displays that are for approach/landing are installed in, or incorporated into, items that are already part of one's scan; such as overlaid on an airspeed tape or similar. Technology has really made some nice applications here.
Again, its not a "must have", because indeed planes fly daily and have for a very long time without them, i agree. I'm only saying its a very nice to have, as it complements other items.
I figure we have more common ground than we realize here.
That's cool. And I think we can agree in last post that we have more common ground than we know.
So far as the accident crew, we can agree they had far more issues working against them than anything related to any instrument(s).