Hawker Down near AKR

KLB said:
This particular operator is not one a very good one even by South Florida standards. Ive heard that they're training department is non existent and the owner their is a real piece of work. I'm glad that I steered clear of operators out if FXE. That airport produces the worst of the worst.
Click to expand...

Ding ding ding. All the urban legends of scumbag operators seen on this forum and others.... right out of FXE. The stories are endless: drug smuggling, 134.5 operations, untrained crew flying 135, fraudulent duty logs, 135 operators being 24/7 on call, maintenance issues (that Hawker with fuselage damage is making the rounds again)...., airplanes being seized while the feds investigate money laundering. You name it, and it happens there.
 
Joshwa said:
how is AoA used in tactical transports like the A400, C130, C-17 and so on? That would be the best practice/advice on how to use it in transport category aircraft I would imagine?
Click to expand...

I would be best used in a transport category aircraft the same way it is used in every other type of aircraft. A gauge with indicators showing:

- Max range AOA
- Max endurance AOA
- Approach AOA
- Stall AOA

Any time you needed one of those conditions, you'd set a pitch and power setting that gave you that particular AOA, in exactly the same way that you do with a bugged or carroted airspeed.

The advantage being, there's no need to calculate anything, since AOA indications are true uncorrected, regardless of configuration, weight, flight conditions (although ice accumulation obviously can impact how the wing itself generates lift, naturally), temperature, G, etc.

Obviously that data is all ready collected and used as part of many (most?) current avionics suites, so the derived data we see (green dots, PLIs, etc) comes from it.

As far as other uses, we would never again have to debate if stall recovery is supposed to take place *in* the stick shaker, or *just below* the stick shaker, because in a stall recovery we'd have an eye on that AOA gauge and be pulling as hard on the yoke as we have to to stay out of stall AOA.
 
Last edited:
mikecweb said:
It may have been said but Hawkers have AOA gauges. These pieces of crap that killed my friend didn't know the height of the clouds and you expect them to read an AOA gauge?
Click to expand...
It would be beneficial for people to know how to read one, but in this case, there was no helping them or your friend, unfortunately, from the sound of it. South Florida claims more victims, sadly.

RIP.
 
z987k said:
AoA is how every aircraft is flown. It's the most relevant thing at any time that the airplane is in the air.
Click to expand...

No I agree that angle of attack is how an aircraft is flown, in aerodynamic terms, however we, the pilot, do not reference angle of attack for any regime of flight in the civilian world, in most airplanes. We know what happens when we exceed critical angle of attack, but what's the degree number? Who knows and who cares?

I see the green dot and other AOA markers while I'm flying, but other than the green dot, there is nothing that I can read on an AOA indicator that can really do anything for me that other indicators can't.
 
mikecweb said:
It may have been said but Hawkers have AOA gauges. These pieces of crap that killed my friend didn't know the height of the clouds and you expect them to read an AOA gauge?
Click to expand...

For approach, you don't need to read a gauge. You just need to look at which of 3 indexer lights are illuminated (assuming they're installed). A fast chevron, a slow chevron, or an on-speed donut.

On newer avionics suites, there's a caret representation on the digital speed tapes.

The indexer is used for approach/landing. The actual gauge with numbers is used for enroute.
 
Inverted said:
No I agree that angle of attack is how an aircraft is flown, in aerodynamic terms, however we, the pilot, do not reference angle of attack for any regime of flight in the civilian world, in most airplanes. We know what happens when we exceed critical angle of attack, but what's the degree number? Who knows and who cares?

I see the green dot and other AOA markers while I'm flying, but other than the green dot, there is nothing that I can read on an AOA indicator that can really do anything for me that other indicators can't.
Click to expand...

If you don't use it primary, then as has been said about 3 times now, it's a good confirmation for whether your speeds are right, as well as how close you're getting to slow, on speed, etc.

It's a great safety nice-to-have. But.....you have to know how to use it, and using it is about as easy as can be. IF you're willing to actually learn something new.
 
Inverted said:
No I agree that angle of attack is how an aircraft is flown, in aerodynamic terms, however we, the pilot, do not reference angle of attack for any regime of flight in the civilian world, in most airplanes. We know what happens when we exceed critical angle of attack, but what's the degree number? Who knows and who cares?

I see the green dot and other AOA markers while I'm flying, but other than the green dot, there is nothing that I can read on an AOA indicator that can really do anything for me that other indicators can't.
Click to expand...
Somehow I imagine conversations like this happening around the coffee pot when the first attitude indicator was invented.
 
z987k said:
Like Hacker has been saying it's a bit of a tangent. No one is saying AoA would have fixed this, in fact it clearly didn't. I'm just making the case for giving pilots the information, which seems to be sorely lacking in large jets. You'll have to fly an approach by reference to AoA to see it. How incredibly stable it makes everything.
Click to expand...

That's cool, but not germane to the clown show that was this cockpit before the crash.
 
If your primary reference on approach is AoA (I assume in conjunction with a HUD of some sort) how do you monitor aircraft limits expressed in IAS?

The scenario I'm thinking of is an approach in very gusty conditions where you have very little margin to your landing flap limit speed? Pitch/power/AoA I guess is a technique that works very well in high thrust/weight ratio aircraft and those with low mass/inertia compared to a heavy jet transport type aircraft. Are there any good reference works/articles/papers about flying AoA out there? I am not in the sceptical camp, simply wanting to know how it is used day to day.
 
Cross check, same way you would altitude and airspeed.

In the jets with HUDs, airspeed is displayed just like in any PFD (most HUD displays look just like a PFD anyway) and AOA van either be a raw number, or a carrot on a vertical bar.
 
CFI A&P said:
Ding ding ding. All the urban legends of scumbag operators seen on this forum and others.... right out of FXE. The stories are endless: drug smuggling, 134.5 operations, untrained crew flying 135, fraudulent duty logs, 135 operators being 24/7 on call, maintenance issues (that Hawker with fuselage damage is making the rounds again)...., airplanes being seized while the feds investigate money laundering. You name it, and it happens there.
Click to expand...

Well. I'm a bit concerned about why the captain was explaining why one needed to set flaps for the ref speed. Specifically, explaining why they couldn't get slow and not have the flaps and leading edge devices deployed. I'm not saying we should be specifically critical of the crew. The wrong pairing combined with what seems to be a lack of training standard at least to me, seems worth looking into. You know, for aviation safety.

We have all had bad pairings but at what point are people unaware of a standard to fly an instrument approach. Briefing the procedure was good but it appears, via the CVR that there were no goal posts or milestones for the crew to objectively judge their performance compared to a set standard. A set standard is basically the whole central point of CRM in a way.

It is central to airline training from what I understand, hence the lack of AOA guages. Also central to 121's continued safety record.
 
BEEF SUPREME said:
It is central to airline training from what I understand, hence the lack of AOA guages. Also central to 121's continued safety record.
Click to expand...

If you believe there to be any link between the two, then you have wholly, entirely missed the point of the sidebar discussion.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top