Hawker Down near AKR

984226-ShaheenairlineMalikShafiqExpress-1446534839-437-640x480.jpg


Since we're talking about two pilot aircraft.

Three items caught my attention in the article.
  • The report mentioned that the pilot could not maintain the balance of the aircraft and also ignored the advice of his co-pilot, reported Dunya News.
  • The investigation also showed that the pilot ignored his co-pilot’s advice and despite high speed he landed the aircraft instead of slowing it down before the landing.
  • The report said that the aircraft can not be used again
http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2015/11/boeing-737-4h6-shaheen-air-ap-bjo.html


Pakistan is a 3rd world country and the only airline worth flying is PIA if you have to. The low cost carriers, including Shaheen, Bhoja, and airBlue have all had accidents/incidents in which the FO tried to warn the CA something was going wrong and the warnings were not heeded. They have a serious case of CRM issues over there. The accident reports for the airBlue and Bhoja crash at Islamabad are available online. Reading the cockpit convo is tough.
 
I thought this comment was pretty interesting since no one else around the scene has mentioned anything about this (that I have read anyway)

A man who worked in an office about a block away from the accident told WOIO he heard the crash but didn't see it.
Scott Ferrell said he could tell something had gone horribly wrong when he heard a plane engine cut out, fire up again, then cut out again.
"And probably a second later, I heard the explosion," Ferrell told the station. "(Then) there were power lives down everywhere. It was pretty chaotic (and) surreal."

Snipped from: http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/11/us/akron-ohio-plane-crash/

Just my thought - A lot of lives and families were changed forever in that second. RIP
 
Witnesses are notoriously unreliable, if I remember my @MikeD seminars correctly. With that said, there's also a comment, which I can't be arsed to dig up right now, by an "unnamed official" in one of those CNN stories which says something along the lines of "we think it was a mechanical failure". Which is, of course, a totally ridiculous thing to hang one's hat on at this point (just like the rest of this thread). But just imagine, for a second, if something broke on the airplane (seems unlikely...Hawkers don't "just break", but bear with me). Just imagine that possibility, which is very real, since no one has any real idea WTF happened. Then imagine the number of crows you'd have to gun down to provide a meal for everyone who just had to put their oar in the water in this thread. Jesus, they'd be an endangered species!
 
Don't get me wrong. If I were laying money, I'd still bet that they somehow biffed a non-precision approach to mins. It might even be true that the guy in the right seat was a 300 hour flight instructor who was basically ballast. They might have been half asleep due to the insane situations which can sometimes arise from 135 rest/duty rules. Their POI might have been looking the other way on a whole raft of regulations. These things are all possible. But it's also possible that the stabilizer fell off, or some jackoff lased the PF, or they were hit by a meteor, or Mars is Attacking! No one participating in this thread has any idea. Yet here we are, on the 10th page...
 
Witnesses are notoriously unreliable, if I remember my @MikeD seminars correctly. With that said, there's also a comment, which I can't be arsed to dig up right now, by an "unnamed official" in one of those CNN stories which says something along the lines of "we think it was a mechanical failure". Which is, of course, a totally ridiculous thing to hang one's hat on at this point (just like the rest of this thread). But just imagine, for a second, if something broke on the airplane (seems unlikely...Hawkers don't "just break", but bear with me). Just imagine that possibility, which is very real, since no one has any real idea WTF happened. Then imagine the number of crows you'd have to gun down to provide a meal for everyone who just had to put their oar in the water in this thread. Jesus, they'd be an endangered species!



As someone with first hand experience as an on-scene investigator and pilot board member and Investigating Officer on a number of Class A/B/C accidents/mishaps (both team as well as single investigator), I've interviewed and vetted numerous witnesses both against one another as well as against factual evidence, and worked the cases through conclusion and final report publication; I keep an open mind to things, both within reason, as well as without reason just in the chance that there maybe something there along those lines.

Witnesses are not necessarily reliable or unreliable....it all really depends.

Regarding witness interview and vetting, the one thing a competent investigator does is you go into every interview with NO preconceived notions about the person you are interviewing. You take what they state and class it for what it is: a witness account. At that point, it's a neutral accounting, neither pro nor con towards the investigation itself. Witness statements are then compared against known facts for information that may match or support; as well as against one another for basic items that may match or have similarity, since witness accounts are rarely ever the exact same. Granted, in the past, pilots have been some of the best as well as some of the worst witnesses I've had towards an accident, depending. I DO NOT assume confirmation bias off the bat (in an investigation, you assume nothing anyway) , nor do I assume the person doesn't have the experience to know what they're talking about. You never do, as that's very poor investigative technique. I also do not ever attempt to drive or steer one's testimony, being careful to ask questions that are neutral enough to get any clarification I need regarding their observations, but not pointed enough to put ideas into someone's head that weren't there, thus tainting their observations. The problem I have with those who automatically write off witness testimony as confirmation bias or the flip side, the witness not knowing enough of what they're talking about; is that you don't know what you're dealing with until the information is vetted. Secondly, many use these same excuses to simply dismiss particular witness testimony offhand without even doing a vetting process. Have seen that happen before. Doing this is a disservice, because where does it end? It can be applied to any professional, anywhere. One could easily say one person is suffering confirmation bias for their observation of one thing, just as easily as it could be applied for anyone else believing another thing. .

In witness interviews, it's noted what the particular background of the witness is; but more importantly, the question will be, and the litmus test I strive for in my interviews is:

Does what the witness describe or answer any of the following:

1. Does their observation match with any known factual evidence?
2. Does their observation refute or rule out any suspected or unknown causal factors?
3. Does their observation open up previously unknown factors or evidence that either have not yet been discovered, or have only been suspected?
4. Is their observation close, somewhat close, or not close at all; to the observations of other witnesses? What details and why?

Witness observations can either be very good, or very bad, and everything in between; so they need to be matched against the above questions. With non-experienced witnesses, the challenge is deciphering what they saw exactly in lay terms, and converting that into useful aviation information accurately. With experienced witnesses, the challenge is to ensure that they're telling you only what they saw, NOT what they think they saw because due to their experience, their mind "filled in the blanks". I need observations only, not conclusions from them during the interview; afterwards I listen to and note whatever else they have to say or think on the incident separately.

The BL is, witnesses shouldn't be completely discounted, nor should they be completely praised as totally accurate. They are simply a form of oral/visual evidence. That evidence....their testimony.......HAS to be matched against the 4 questions I posted above. Doing that, again, they may be extremely accurate, may be somewhat accurate, or may be totally inaccurate. Or....as I've experienced before.......you may get different "puzzle pieces" from different witnesses who saw different parts of the same event, or saw things from a different geographical perspective that another didn't, and that can either corroborate or refute testimony or even other suspicions/hunches.

As I said, there have been times when something a witness said in an interview, led investigators down a path they hadn't considered, because physical evidence had not yet been discovered along that path yet. So witnesses just need to be compared to the above 4 questions.
 
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Last radar hit shows them 0.24NM northeast of AK-LOM at 2,900. Altitude over the AK-LOM as charted is 2,300. The chart for the LOC-25 says the G/P to TCH of 50' is 3.09°.

By my calculations, from that distance and altitude, to achieve 50' TCH, the descent angle would have to be 4.42°

The ground speed on the last radar position shows 127 kts. This would make for a rate of descent of -936 FPM, if my calculations are correct-ish.

3.7 miles from AK to the MAP, plus their 0.24 east of it, makes for a distance to travel of 3.94 NMs to the MAP.

If the weather was at the Cat C straight-in minimums, and if you were on the 3.09° GP from AK, you would break-out and see the runway 1.5 NMs out, at basically 500' above field elevation.

The address where they crashed is 1.74NMs from the end of the runway.

Weather was as follows:
22 minutes before the crash:
SPECI KAKR 101931Z AUTO 25008KT 1 1/2SM BR OVC005 11/09 A2995
RMK AO2 CIG 003V009 T01110094=


1 Minute after the crash:
METAR KAKR 101954Z AUTO 24007KT 1 1/2SM BR BKN004 OVC009
11/09 A2995 RMK AO2 SLP142 T01060094=

The weather was below minimums for the LOC-25 22 minutes before the crash and improved slightly, as in just enough, to make the approach possibly legal, (if ASOS was reporting).

Regardless, from the point of the last radar hit, to the point of impact is a distance of 2.11 NMs. That's 2.11 NMs to lose 1360', to reach MDA, from 2900'. With the ground speed of 127, you would cover that distance in 59 seconds. Let's call it one minute. So one minute to descend from 2900' to ground elevation at crash sight of 1097', that makes for a rate of descent of 1803' FPM.

Without any indicators of navigation equipment malfunction, or other mechanical troubles, I can't help but to come to a conclusion that this crew flew this airplane into the ground attempting an approach which was marginal at best, according to the available weather reports.

CAK is only 7.4NM from AKR and has 4 ILS approaches. The crew should have elected to go into CAK.

RIP to all.

My head just exploded
 
All I'm doing is looking at the factors

From what I've read in the last few pages, you're looking at the KNOWN factors as of this minute. Who knows, something drastic may have happened in the cockpit a la FDX705 or some other nefarious deed. The wreckage is barely cold and you have sewn up the case Columbo....just one more thing, where in the hell is @ATN_Pilot the last few days. I've seen his "likes" but he's been awfully quiet. Don't you know I NEED entertainment over here!?
 
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As someone with first hand experience as an on-scene investigator and pilot board member and Investigating Officer on a number of Class A/B/C accidents/mishaps (both team as well as single investigator), I've interviewed and vetted numerous witnesses both against one another as well as against factual evidence, and worked the cases through conclusion and final report publication; I keep an open mind to things, both within reason, as well as without reason just in the chance that there maybe something there along those lines.

Witnesses are not necessarily reliable or unreliable....it all really depends.

Regarding witness interview and vetting, the one thing a competent investigator does is you go into every interview with NO preconceived notions about the person you are interviewing. You take what they state and class it for what it is: a witness account. At that point, it's a neutral accounting, neither pro nor con towards the investigation itself. Witness statements are then compared against known facts for information that may match or support; as well as against one another for basic items that may match or have similarity, since witness accounts are rarely ever the exact same. Granted, in the past, pilots have been some of the best as well as some of the worst witnesses I've had towards an accident, depending. I DO NOT assume confirmation bias (in an investigation, you assume nothing anyway) off the bat, nor do I assume the person doesn't have the experience to know what they're talking about. You never do, as that's very poor investigative technique. I also do not ever attempt to drive or steer one's testimony, being careful to ask questions that are neutral enough to get any clarification I need regarding their observations, but not pointed enough to put ideas into someone's head that weren't there, thus tainting their observations. The problem I have with those who automatically write off witness testimony as confirmation bias or the flip side, the witness not knowing enough of what they're talking about; is that you don't know what you're dealing with until the information is vetted. Secondly, many use these same excuses to simply dismiss particular witness testimony offhand without even doing a vetting process. Have seen that happen before. Doing this is a disservice, because where does it end? It can be applied to any professional, anywhere. One could easily say one person is suffering confirmation bias for their observation of one thing, just as easily as it could be applied for anyone else believing another thing. .

In witness interviews, it's noted what the particular background of the witness is; but more importantly, the question will be, and the litmus test I strive for in my interviews is:

Does what the witness describe or answer any of the following:

1. Does their observation match with any known factual evidence?
2. Does their observation refute or rule out any suspected or unknown causal factors?
3. Does their observation open up previously unknown factors or evidence that either have not yet been discovered, or have only been suspected?
4. Is their observation close, somewhat close, or not close at all; to the observations of other witnesses? What details and why?

Witness observations can either be very good, or very bad, and everything in between; so they need to be matched against the above questions. With non-experienced witnesses, the challenge is deciphering what they saw exactly in lay terms, and converting that into useful aviation information accurately. With experienced witnesses, the challenge is to ensure that they're telling you only what they saw, NOT what they think they saw because due to their experience, their mind "filled in the blanks". I need observations only, not conclusions from them during the interview; afterwards I listen to and note whatever else they have to say or think on the incident separately.

The BL is, witnesses shouldn't be completely discounted, nor should they be completely praised as totally accurate. They are simply a form of oral/visual evidence. That evidence....their testimony.......HAS to be matched against the 4 questions I posted above. Doing that, again, they may be extremely accurate, may be somewhat accurate, or may be totally inaccurate. Or....as I've experienced before.......you may get different "puzzle pieces" from different witnesses who saw different parts of the same event, or saw things from a different geographical perspective that another didn't, and that can either corroborate or refute testimony or even other suspicions/hunches.

As I said, there have been times when something a witness said in an interview, led investigators down a path they hadn't considered, because physical evidence had not yet been discovered along that path yet. So witnesses just need to be compared to the above 4 questions.



On a slight off topic major accident, was it the center wing tank like the NTSB said? Or a missile?

I'm shocked how many Part 121 ATP certificated pilots believe it was a missile.
 
On a slight off topic major accident, was it the center wing tank like the NTSB said? Or a missile?

I'm shocked how many Part 121 ATP certificated pilots believe it was a missile.

Well, of course they believe it was a missile - pilots don't want to believe that an airplane would just explode on you.
 
"Yep, this airplane is just fast enough to kill you."

I got within a genital-hair-breadth of buying a Mooney Mite when I was a teenager. And someone said that to me, verbatim. I imagine they'd read the same quote. I count that failure-to-acquire amongst my greatest mistakes. I mean it's a long list, obviously, but still.
 
Tragically, I'm not "Part 121 ATP certificated" (whatever that is), but I'm 110% sure it was a raygun. It's as clear as this Hawker crash being down to, uh, rest rules! Open your eyes, Sheeple!
I did get an ATP under a Part 121 program (whatever that really means about the value of that certificate) and my eyebrow remains elevated on a lot of things.

Not necessarily that set of things.
 
I do like what Clyde Cessna once said.

But, I mean, in all deadly earnest, they're all fast enough to kill you. We are fragile little creatures. The wrong thingie goes in to the wrong place and we're deader than dog droppings at a pace that would astonish the comfortable Chevy-drivers of the universe. One of the great virtues of flying a little Medevac is an unpleasant but lingering appreciation of one's mortality. Now, that said, there are non-gender-specific persons who are just this side of children out there flying Metros around with radiation tattle-tales velcroed to something or another, flying in the mountains, getting iced up, and all of the other hairy-chested Freight "Dog" stuff. All by their little lonsesomes. Circling to minimums. All the time. And magically not dying. I think some posters here would do well to take that great big pointy finger and turn it about 180 degrees. I've recently had occasion to do so, myself, and it's been, eh, instructive.
 
But, I mean, in all deadly earnest, they're all fast enough to kill you. We are fragile little creatures. The wrong thingie goes in to the wrong place and we're deader than dog droppings at a pace that would astonish the comfortable Chevy-drivers of the universe. One of the great virtues of flying a little Medevac is an unpleasant but lingering appreciation of one's mortality. Now, that said, there are non-gender-specific persons who are just this side of children out there flying Metros around with radiation tattle-tales velcroed to something or another, flying in the mountains, getting iced up, and all of the other hairy-chested Freight "Dog" stuff. All by their little lonsesomes. Circling to minimums. All the time. And magically not dying. I think some posters here would do well to take that great big pointy finger and turn it about 180 degrees. I've recently had occasion to do so, myself, and it's been, eh, instructive.
I freely admit that I am too much of a wuss to expose the flying public to such hazards, if that's what you're looking for.

(none of that sounds hugely appealing to me - I like my safe, "boring" box that I live in.)
 
I freely admit that I am too much of a wuss to expose the flying public to such hazards, if that's what you're looking for.

Not looking for anything in particular. Again, this isn't chest-thumping. It's just an explication of why wetting one's britches over the supposed experience level of a (hypothetical) F/O who was (hypothetically) on this airplane which (really) crashed is not only ridiculous, but insulting. I mean, the elephant in the room, again, is that no one has any idea whatsoever what happened to these poor people. Everything else is supposition and/or speculation. But it's curious, isn't it, how often our suppositions and/or speculations tend to line up with our Opinions on things which don't have any obvious connection with whatever we're supposing or speculating about?
 
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