Hawker Down near AKR

ppragman said:
Are people (really a person) in this thread really suggesting that a localizer approach to minimums is unsafe? Jesus, I'd hate to have to justify some of the approaches I've flown to them over my career. What are your thoughts on NDB approaches to minimums? Or EGADS! An LDA? I don't even want to get started on all the circling approaches to minimums I've flown...
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Yes, I am.

When a company is known for hiring FOs with 500 hours to sit right seat, and the possibility exists that this same FO is assigned to you for a trip, you might as well be flying single pilot.

Last two FOs hired at a 135 I am intimately familiar with, had 1568 TT and 733TT.

Like I said, depending on the skill and sharpness of the guy next to you, you may just be flying single pilot. And if you don't consider a guy with less time and experience to be limiting.. well.. good luck out there
 
gliderboy said:
"My point is this. I'm advocating choosing the safer alternative. I'm not afreaid to shoot a non precision approach to minimums. But because I understand how the chips get stacked against you, even more so when perhaps you're carrying and monitoring a weaker pilot (FO), mistakes are made. So why should I not given myself the option to elect the safer alternative? Please explain your thoughts on this."

This. Even if it was legal, if it's beyond your skill level, you've got pax and you're in someone else's airplane you have to choose the safer alternative. If it costs you your job, so be it. Walk away with your head held high knowing you did the right thing. If money and status are so important to you that you're willing to risk the lives of others, you're in the wrong business.

At our shop the first thing the CP said to me was: "Nothing we're doing here is so important that we have to take chances. If you cancel a flight because you're uncomfortable with the weather, it will soon be forgotten. If you push it and something bad happens, it will be remembered forever."
And sure enough, since I was still a bit shaky during my first few months at the company I did indeed cancel/turn back once or twice because I felt over my head. The result, they complimented me for my decision making.

Dirty Harry: "A man has to know his limitations."
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I'd say you have no place flying for pay if an approach to minimums is above your skill level.

*I'm not saying this about you, just responding in general.
 
somewhereupthere said:
Yes, I am.

When a company is known for hiring FOs with 500 hours to sit right seat, and the possibility exists that this same FO is assigned to you for a trip, you might as well be flying single pilot.

Last two FOs hired at a 135 I am intimately familiar with, had 1568 TT and 733TT.

Like I said, depending on the skill and sharpness of the guy next to you, you may just be flying single pilot. And if you don't consider a guy with less time and experience to be limiting.. well.. good luck out there
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You act as if this isn't common in 135. Have you ever heard of a state called Florida? Or hell, in 121 even. 121 pilots were hopping in the right seat with less than 500TT not that long ago with 50+ people behind them.
 
MikeOH58 said:
Wow, 3,100 hours? A WHOLE 3,100 hours? Damn, thats impressive. Clearly you know what your talking about with that high level of experience. When I had 3,100 hours I thought I knew it all. Now, when I think back to 3,100 hours, i'm amazed I didn't kill myself.

Although 3,100 hours isn't much time by any stretch of the imagination, it is enough time for me to say that if you are afraid to shoot a non precision approach to minimums, er, 1/4 mile above minimums, you should really do some soul searching.

Mountainous ILS at night with no ALS, minimums and a 90 degree wind blowing to 30?.....Maybe I don't try the approach.

Daytime, mile and a half, 400-500 over with winds straight down the runway? If that is setting off alarms, I don't want to be flown by you.

Also, i'd love to hear how you have 3,100 total time and 2,700 turbine PIC?
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I understand you're trying to make a point to this troll, but if you are scaring yourself with regularity after accumulating 3,000+ hours in anything, maybe a change in career is in order.

3,000 hours isn't necessarily the pinnacle of aviation achievement, but to say that it isn't much time is pretty ridiculous.
 
ppragman said:
Are people (really a person) in this thread really suggesting that a localizer approach to minimums is unsafe? Jesus, I'd hate to have to justify some of the approaches I've flown to them over my career. What are your thoughts on NDB approaches to minimums? Or EGADS! An LDA? I don't even want to get started on all the circling approaches to minimums I've flown...
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No not minimums. Above minimums. 1/2 mile above.
 
somewhereupthere said:
Yes, I am.

When a company is known for hiring FOs with 500 hours to sit right seat, and the possibility exists that this same FO is assigned to you for a trip, you might as well be flying single pilot.

Last two FOs hired at a 135 I am intimately familiar with, had 1568 TT and 733TT.

Like I said, depending on the skill and sharpness of the guy next to you, you may just be flying single pilot. And if you don't consider a guy with less time and experience to be limiting.. well.. good luck out there
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Idk, we pretty commonly make people with those times PICs of some pretty complicated piston aircraft and have them go fly around in much worse weather.
IME a 700 hour pilot's biggest liability is decision making. Not flying or more likely button switching if it's a modern jet.
 
somewhereupthere said:
Last two FOs hired at a 135 I am intimately familiar with, had 1568 TT and 733TT.
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I'm really not seeing the issue here. I used to fly with 300 hour guys in a CRJ, shooting approaches down to actual mins. Wasn't a big deal. Sure, a 2500 hour guy may be more helpful in the right seat at times, but we managed just fine.

1500 hours is the norm for FOs into 121 now so it happens every day, shooting approaches WAY less forgiving than a LOC approach.
 
RIP to all involved. I know the investigation will determine the cause of this unfortunate accident. Hopefully we can learn from the investigation to help prevent the same type accidents in the future.
 
somewhereupthere said:
Yes, I am.

When a company is known for hiring FOs with 500 hours to sit right seat, and the possibility exists that this same FO is assigned to you for a trip, you might as well be flying single pilot.

Last two FOs hired at a 135 I am intimately familiar with, had 1568 TT and 733TT.

Like I said, depending on the skill and sharpness of the guy next to you, you may just be flying single pilot. And if you don't consider a guy with less time and experience to be limiting.. well.. good luck out there
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The military sends fresh co-pilots to their first Squadron with right around 750 or so hours with much less in type. I don't see them falling out of the sky as you make this sound. And they fly in much austere conditions. A competent CA should be able to effectively direct the actions of the FO. Not everyone will make a good CA anyway.
 
The hours shouldn't necessarily be in question. The SOPs, and CRM at places like Execuflight and many many others need to be examined. I am not saying anything towards any contributing factors here, but merely commenting on the side discussion of hours and experience. I will also say, that somebody with 5,000 hours, that has spent the last 4,500 hours learning and building bad habits is more dangerous than a low time pilot. A pilot with 1,500, 2,500, 3,500 hours is a very capable pilot with the right skill set. Hours should never be used solely as basis for the ability or experience to fly an airplane. I question the planning, the cockpit operation, communication, standardization, checks and balances, and oversight at these nobody charter outfits. I have worked for those companies and it is downright scary how many close calls, and how sloppy things are when you have high time captains that have spent a career bending rules, overlooking broken items, going below mins and a bunch of other stuff. I can only hope that some action comes out of this accident, no matter what the cause. Whether 24/7 rest finally gets under the microscope, pilot training or anything else that these companies do behind the POI's back.
 
z987k said:
Let's be honest here. The POIs usually condone all of that type of behavior and are a significant part of the problem.
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While I do think there is some of that, I to keep the bigger issue is the company cooking books to make things look pretty. No company is telling their POI that they are illegally holding their crews on call 24/7.
 
somewhereupthere said:
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Hmmmmmm
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Liked ironically.
 
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