Have to leave ATP only a week in...
- Thread starter vladi34
- Start date
Asta
New Member
The Equal Protection clause prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, gender and a few other "suspect classes" of which fat guys are not included. And yes I am a lawyer, but I'm working hard to overcome it.
I don't get why they booted you. I flew around with a big guy in the PA44 and we would have been out of CG if we didn't load the baggage compartment up with those big water cooler bottles!
SpiraMirabilis
Possible Subversive
Berkut -- it doesn't matter if he is disabled or not if ATP perceives that he is and discriminates based on that perception. ATP perceives that he won't be able to get a job based on his weight. Working is considered a major life activity based on the supreme court decision in Bragdon v Abbot. So even though he is not actually disabled if ATP thinks that his weight would prevent him from being hired anywhere and based on that discriminates against him then any competent attorney could at least bring it to trial with a somewhat compelling case.
Remember this quote:
Remember this quote:
SIUav8er
Narcosis
I couldnt imagine someone that weighs 400 lbs in a seminole, let alone a 172! I think the guy at ATP was out of line saying they could do that, but imagine the trouble they would be in if they DID have a published weight limit for students! I dont understand why you guys think the school is wrong for canceling a flight for obvious safety reasons.
They gave the guy his money back, Im sure appologized because they dont have the proper aircraft to train him in, and sent him on his way! I guess Im just missing the problem here.
I doubt ATP ever said he wouldnt be able to get an airline job. They require a 1st class medical to begin the program... Maybe the FAA should be sued for discrimination? Or... maybe we should sue Cessna for putting weight an balance limitations on 172. While were at it, lets also sue ATP for requiring their aircraft take off with full fuel!
They gave the guy his money back, Im sure appologized because they dont have the proper aircraft to train him in, and sent him on his way! I guess Im just missing the problem here.
I doubt ATP ever said he wouldnt be able to get an airline job. They require a 1st class medical to begin the program... Maybe the FAA should be sued for discrimination? Or... maybe we should sue Cessna for putting weight an balance limitations on 172. While were at it, lets also sue ATP for requiring their aircraft take off with full fuel!
Berkut
Well-Known Member
I don't believe that ATP perceives he's disabled. I believe that ATP perceives (perhaps wrongly) that Vladi simply isn't who the airlines are looking for. You could say that's effed up and and untrue, and I'd be inclined to agree with you. But I don't think they are perceiving a disability.
ATP perceives that he won't get a job as an airline pilot because of his weight, not that he is unable to work because of his weight. There's a significant difference. Remember, airlines are within their rights to say, "We like you, but appearance is very important to us. Sorry." An airline not hiring you because you're overweight doesn't mean that you are disabled*; therefore, it follows that someone saying an airline won't hire you because you're overweight doesn't mean that person perceives you as being disabled. That particular someone is commenting on what he believes to be the airlines' hiring preference, not on any perceived impairment of the student.
The key point is this: If ATP believes for some reason that the airlines won't hire an overweight person for reasons of appearance rather than impairment (which the airlines can do, even if they choose not to), then ATP is free to tell overweight students that they are unhireable. Since it has nothing to do with impairment, it's not because of any perceived disability. And if there's no actual disability or perceived disability, then ATP is not required to accommodate them.
* "No airlines will hire me because I'm fat" vs. "I'm unable to work because I'm fat"
desertdog71
Girthy Member
Yeah,
I heard that Desertdog guy actually got hired flying tours at Grand Canyon in 207's where the planes are always at max gross and the density altitude is high, and he is a fat bastard.
I heard he was hired by a regional turboprop operator as well, and he weighs 300lbs. I also hear that he is instructing at White Air and they fly Cherokee 140's, Cessna 172K models and Twin Comanches and manage to be within CG and weight limits.
I don't know what else to say, but apparently there are exceptions to these situations. I wouldn't let your weight stop you but at the same time you could work on it. I have lost about 30 lbs since I started out so I am down to 270 now, but I never let it stop me.
Of course I couldn't do dual in a C-150 or Diamond or something small like that, so there are a few limits to what you can do, but not being able to make very small adjustments to accommodate you is beyond my comprehension.
I have taken checkrides with DPE's that weigh 275lbs, so we just filled to the tabs instead and put a couple bags of books in the back. No big deal really.
Anyways, you can PM me if you wanna talk more about it.
I heard that Desertdog guy actually got hired flying tours at Grand Canyon in 207's where the planes are always at max gross and the density altitude is high, and he is a fat bastard.
I heard he was hired by a regional turboprop operator as well, and he weighs 300lbs. I also hear that he is instructing at White Air and they fly Cherokee 140's, Cessna 172K models and Twin Comanches and manage to be within CG and weight limits.
I don't know what else to say, but apparently there are exceptions to these situations. I wouldn't let your weight stop you but at the same time you could work on it. I have lost about 30 lbs since I started out so I am down to 270 now, but I never let it stop me.
Of course I couldn't do dual in a C-150 or Diamond or something small like that, so there are a few limits to what you can do, but not being able to make very small adjustments to accommodate you is beyond my comprehension.
I have taken checkrides with DPE's that weigh 275lbs, so we just filled to the tabs instead and put a couple bags of books in the back. No big deal really.
Anyways, you can PM me if you wanna talk more about it.
meyers9163
Well-Known Member
Van thanks for replying! Its been a while bro! Holla at me man!
Thanks for all of the response, it's truly appreciated. Here is what I got to add to all of this. I don't think that I have ever considered myself a disabled person, there are people that are in far worse condition then me (wounded soldiers, accidents victims, persons with birth defects, persons with uncontrollable medical conditions, and many more) that deserve the help that they get for being disabled. I on the other hand like to eat good food and unfortunately over the last few years lost the activity level that I used to have, simple as that. It is my fault for being this way and it's something that I can and will definitely do something about. The problem that I have with ATP simply lies in the fact that these people saw me before when I toured the facility and I asked them questions about my weight and no one told me that it was going to be a problem, just the opposite as a matter of fact. On top of all that I was there for ground school for a week and no one said that it would be a problem for me to fly. I also have a problem with them making the call that I will not be able to get a job, they don't know me...
SIUav8er if they would return all of my money that would be a good gesture on their part, but from what I heard from the facility manager they are going to charge me $750 for materials... I don't need their materials, and 750 is 750 in my eyes that is still a considerable chunk of money. Now I don't yet know what I'm going to get back, that is Jim's call and I am still waiting for him to make that decision (while Sallie Mae continues to charge me interest). All of this is not even mentioning that I quit my job and spent money actually getting down to and back from ATP. If they would have told me right of the bat, or if it was on their website that my weight would be an issue I would have stayed at my job a while longer and worked on getting my weight down BEFORE going out there... Instead I was planning on taking that 5 to 6 months while at ATP and working on getting my weight down a little (or a lot). I know appearance is a lot when it comes to getting flying jobs, but I also know that weight is not everything...
Basically I consider what they did to me is a slimeball move on their part and they could have easily let me stay and get my ratings at their school or warned me ahead of time. But life is full of speed bumps, if there were none we would all be millionears and flying our own jets :laff: I do not intend to let this get me down, and I WILL get all my ratings and be flying for a living, it's as simple as that. But I do not like someone stealing from my family, and if ATP takes a dime from me that is what I will consider it. If on the other hand Jim does the right thing and sends every last penny back to me, I will acnowledge that and part with ATP on neutral terms. As far as I can see that would tell me that he realized that they effed up on letting me in and they are doing the best that they can to remedy the situation, and if that means for them to take a small loss on the materials that they sent me so be it, it won't bankrupt them. After all I am taking a loss to, $300 in gas to get there $300 to get back, loss of a job, and being away from my kids and wife... We'll see how this turns out.
SIUav8er if they would return all of my money that would be a good gesture on their part, but from what I heard from the facility manager they are going to charge me $750 for materials... I don't need their materials, and 750 is 750 in my eyes that is still a considerable chunk of money. Now I don't yet know what I'm going to get back, that is Jim's call and I am still waiting for him to make that decision (while Sallie Mae continues to charge me interest). All of this is not even mentioning that I quit my job and spent money actually getting down to and back from ATP. If they would have told me right of the bat, or if it was on their website that my weight would be an issue I would have stayed at my job a while longer and worked on getting my weight down BEFORE going out there... Instead I was planning on taking that 5 to 6 months while at ATP and working on getting my weight down a little (or a lot). I know appearance is a lot when it comes to getting flying jobs, but I also know that weight is not everything...
Basically I consider what they did to me is a slimeball move on their part and they could have easily let me stay and get my ratings at their school or warned me ahead of time. But life is full of speed bumps, if there were none we would all be millionears and flying our own jets :laff: I do not intend to let this get me down, and I WILL get all my ratings and be flying for a living, it's as simple as that. But I do not like someone stealing from my family, and if ATP takes a dime from me that is what I will consider it. If on the other hand Jim does the right thing and sends every last penny back to me, I will acnowledge that and part with ATP on neutral terms. As far as I can see that would tell me that he realized that they effed up on letting me in and they are doing the best that they can to remedy the situation, and if that means for them to take a small loss on the materials that they sent me so be it, it won't bankrupt them. After all I am taking a loss to, $300 in gas to get there $300 to get back, loss of a job, and being away from my kids and wife... We'll see how this turns out.
SpiraMirabilis
Possible Subversive
There is no difference. The law doesn't make the distinction between working one job or working any job. ATP doesn't have to say 'You can't work any job because of your weight' because saying 'You can't work job X' is good enough. HOWEVER Even if you accept the proposition that it is only based on appearance then it very well still be a tort. Image related lawsuits are reaching an all-time high for employeers especially. It is only acceptable to discriminate based on appearance if the appearance constitutes a "bona fide occupational qualification." It obviously does not in this case due to the number of chunky pilots I've seen in the airlines.
Berkut
Well-Known Member
It's not good enough, because the law does make that distinction in 29 CFR 1630.2: "The inability to perform a single, particular job does not constitute a substantial limitation in the major life activity of working." There was a case a few years back in which someone claimed to be disabled because their poor eyesight prevented them from being an airline pilot. The court rejected that allegation, citing 29 CFR 1630.2, since according to them airline pilot is a single job and not "a class of jobs or broad range of jobs." Are you asserting that someone who can't get a medical due to some relatively trivial issue, like kidney stones or 20/40 corrected vision, be considered disabled just because they can't work as an airline pilot? Even if they are perfectly healthy otherwise?
Consider this scenario: Let's say that vladi34 decides to become a bridge inspector instead. It turns out that he's physically unable to do it because he can't fit inside the structures. He is unable to do this one job due to a physical impairment. Can he claim to be disabled now? And here's the kicker: If so, now that he's officially disabled due to his weight, can he force ATP to accommodate him as a student? I suspect if that were the case, we'd have hundreds of thousands of unemployed "bridge inspectors" and the like on disability.
"I can't work job X." doesn't mean I'm disabled; Someone saying that I can't work job X doesn't mean they perceive me as disabled.
I have no doubt that someone might sue an airline for doing that. Fortunately for ATP though, it's not prohibited to refuse to accommodate a non-disabled student based on their weight, while at the same time advising that student that someone else will discriminate based on his or her appearance. They are just saying what they think the airlines would do, not practicing it themselves. "Perceived" doesn't come into play in this scenario since disability is out of the picture.
At any rate, I'm running out of energy on this topic, so if this post doesn't sway you then I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. There's not much point in debating potential lawsuit outcomes anyway, and we do seem to be headed that direction. I do appreciate your reasoned arguments instead of the other ATP bashing, though.
Vladi34,
As I wrote in my previous post, I was VERY worried because I had already put my deposit down with ATP.
I believe in doing the right thing. If something isn't right, I'm the first one to speak out about it. That said, I have to say that ATP did the right thing.
I emailed Greg Carman at ATP. Greg and Jim both called me and I re-explained my concerns. Jim had me go to the Riverside ATP location, meet with a CFI there, make sure that I had full range of movement on all of the controls and worked out the weight and balance equations.
I fit in the plane and my range of movement with the controls was not restricted. When we worked out the weight and balance, the CFI told me that I would not be able to complete spin training at ATP, because my weight kept us out of the utility category (which brings up a totally different question, because hardly anyone does, right???).
I got an email a few days later from Greg that said that I could attend ATP for my PPL and for the 90 day program, however I would not be able to complete my CFI rating because of the weight/balance issue. My options were to get the rating outside of ATP or to take $2,000 back in cash or get 15 additional hours of ME time. I emailed back and said that I did not like any of those options. The convenience and speed of the ATP program is what attracted me to ATP and now it wasn't possible to get all of my ratings in five months. I then received the following email:
"Mike
In consideration of your unique circumstances, we are immediately
refunding your deposit, less $500 for books until they are returned.
Once you return those to us, we will refund the remaining $500 to the same
credit card.
Please ship the books to:
ATP
1555 The Greens Way
Jacksonville Beach, FL 32250
904-273-3018
We will email you a UPS label for return-shipping so that you don't have to bear that cost.
Also, Kathy from our Finance Department will be contacting you to ensure that your Wachovia loan is cancelled and that no disbursements are made to ATP.
I hope that you will consider ATP in the future for your professional pilot
certification needs. On behalf of everyone at ATP, we wish you success in
achieving your pilot career objectives.
Sincerely,
Greg Carman
Flight Training Coordinator
Airline Transport Professionals, Inc. (ATP)
800-ALL-ATPS/800-255-2877
Web: http://www.atpflightschool.com
Email: mailto:greg@allatps.com"
Since that email, I returned the box of materials to ATP and today I received a $500 refund on my Visa. ATP had credited me $1,495 on the day of Greg's email.
So, all in all, I would say that ATP definitely did the professional thing. I'm still disappointed that I cannot attend, but I need to lose a lot of weight. After getting in shape, maybe I'll have the opportunity to attend ATP. In the mean time, I will finish my PPL.
I am happy that ATP did the right thing for me. How are you bouncing back from your experience?
Mike
As I wrote in my previous post, I was VERY worried because I had already put my deposit down with ATP.
I believe in doing the right thing. If something isn't right, I'm the first one to speak out about it. That said, I have to say that ATP did the right thing.
I emailed Greg Carman at ATP. Greg and Jim both called me and I re-explained my concerns. Jim had me go to the Riverside ATP location, meet with a CFI there, make sure that I had full range of movement on all of the controls and worked out the weight and balance equations.
I fit in the plane and my range of movement with the controls was not restricted. When we worked out the weight and balance, the CFI told me that I would not be able to complete spin training at ATP, because my weight kept us out of the utility category (which brings up a totally different question, because hardly anyone does, right???).
I got an email a few days later from Greg that said that I could attend ATP for my PPL and for the 90 day program, however I would not be able to complete my CFI rating because of the weight/balance issue. My options were to get the rating outside of ATP or to take $2,000 back in cash or get 15 additional hours of ME time. I emailed back and said that I did not like any of those options. The convenience and speed of the ATP program is what attracted me to ATP and now it wasn't possible to get all of my ratings in five months. I then received the following email:
"Mike
In consideration of your unique circumstances, we are immediately
refunding your deposit, less $500 for books until they are returned.
Once you return those to us, we will refund the remaining $500 to the same
credit card.
Please ship the books to:
ATP
1555 The Greens Way
Jacksonville Beach, FL 32250
904-273-3018
We will email you a UPS label for return-shipping so that you don't have to bear that cost.
Also, Kathy from our Finance Department will be contacting you to ensure that your Wachovia loan is cancelled and that no disbursements are made to ATP.
I hope that you will consider ATP in the future for your professional pilot
certification needs. On behalf of everyone at ATP, we wish you success in
achieving your pilot career objectives.
Sincerely,
Greg Carman
Flight Training Coordinator
Airline Transport Professionals, Inc. (ATP)
800-ALL-ATPS/800-255-2877
Web: http://www.atpflightschool.com
Email: mailto:greg@allatps.com"
Since that email, I returned the box of materials to ATP and today I received a $500 refund on my Visa. ATP had credited me $1,495 on the day of Greg's email.
So, all in all, I would say that ATP definitely did the professional thing. I'm still disappointed that I cannot attend, but I need to lose a lot of weight. After getting in shape, maybe I'll have the opportunity to attend ATP. In the mean time, I will finish my PPL.
I am happy that ATP did the right thing for me. How are you bouncing back from your experience?
Mike
DL31082
Well-Known Member
Vladi34,
How did everything turn out? Did they give you your money back? I actually went through the FTY location earlier this year and know some of the guys that were your instructors. My impression from them was that they were surprised that they let you go. I also got to hear some of their side of the story. Anyways... let us know what happened. Good luck getting your ratings.
How did everything turn out? Did they give you your money back? I actually went through the FTY location earlier this year and know some of the guys that were your instructors. My impression from them was that they were surprised that they let you go. I also got to hear some of their side of the story. Anyways... let us know what happened. Good luck getting your ratings.
