BillH
New Member
Off the record, lie about your weight.
Have to leave ATP only a week in...
- Thread starter vladi34
- Start date
Off the record, lie about your weight.
falconvalley
Absentee Dad of the OOTSK, Runner, Cat Frustrator
Somebody get desertdog71 in here! Seriously, he would probably have some good insight on this topic. It IS possible to get a job with the airlines, though you need to care more about your health. Change your lifestyle and don't let ATP run you down. Sounds like that guy thinks he knows what's right for you and he hasn't a clue. I seen PLENTY of airline pilots that need to lose more than 20 pounds. You're right on by believing in yourself.
I agree with those who are nervous for you about your financial future. If I were in your shoes, I would seriously give the money back to SLM and go the slow and easy route with flight training. Get a good job to support that. OK, just a short lecture...please consider taking the advice from someone who took the slow route with flight training. I have no flight training related debt and it has saved my financial arse NUMEROUS times. Now is the absolute BEST time to take your time. Hiring will be slow for a bit and there's no reason to pay extra in interest and go 70 grand into debt when you can do it slower for MUCH less. There's an easier way!
I agree with those who are nervous for you about your financial future. If I were in your shoes, I would seriously give the money back to SLM and go the slow and easy route with flight training. Get a good job to support that. OK, just a short lecture...please consider taking the advice from someone who took the slow route with flight training. I have no flight training related debt and it has saved my financial arse NUMEROUS times. Now is the absolute BEST time to take your time. Hiring will be slow for a bit and there's no reason to pay extra in interest and go 70 grand into debt when you can do it slower for MUCH less. There's an easier way!
I think one thing that no one brought up yet that needs to be thought about is the medical ticket. If you pay all the money up front and two or three years from now have something as simple as high blood pressure, you can lose your ability to fly. You need to think longe term with your health as a pilot. Keep yourself healthy to protect the investment you will make in your future career. I am sorry that ATP did that to you, and believe me, I know ATP better than most, it will be for the best. ATP does a good job of teaching AIRLINE pilots. Like everyone else has posted, get your private at a local FBO. Take your time and learn some techniques from some of the old timers. I got my liscense and then flew with far more experienced pilots to learn advanced techniques that helped me do very well in ATP's career program. Go get your liscense and then fly by yourself. Thats how you learn about flying.
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
"Somebody get desertdog71 in here! Seriously, he would probably have some good insight on this topic."
That's what I was thinking. He's at the White Air forums. You really should PM him, Vladi.
If you can hold a medical, ATP has no place saying "you don't meet the standard to be hired as an airline pilot". It's just not right. That standard is a moving target that ATP can't control. And it's really none of their business. If they want to make excuses to not train you, that's their biz, but saying you couldn't be hired as a pilot is BS. As long as you can hold the medical.
I reviewed the thread and I don't see where you mention whether you can hold a first class medical. I'd suggest you make sure you can do that before you spend a dime on flight training.
And since when does ATP only train "airline pilots". Will they not take your money if you want to go corporate or be a career CFI?
That's what I was thinking. He's at the White Air forums. You really should PM him, Vladi.
If you can hold a medical, ATP has no place saying "you don't meet the standard to be hired as an airline pilot". It's just not right. That standard is a moving target that ATP can't control. And it's really none of their business. If they want to make excuses to not train you, that's their biz, but saying you couldn't be hired as a pilot is BS. As long as you can hold the medical.
I reviewed the thread and I don't see where you mention whether you can hold a first class medical. I'd suggest you make sure you can do that before you spend a dime on flight training.
And since when does ATP only train "airline pilots". Will they not take your money if you want to go corporate or be a career CFI?
meyers9163
Well-Known Member
Things happen for a reason. You can look back in 10 years when you are flying at the airlines and say, "the hell with atp and JIM you can kiss my rear end." (i'd put it another way but i got a warning from steve earlier for something like that). Regardless ATP isnt all its cracked up to be. Jim has no clue how the airlines are run right now. Hell if he did he'd notice a lot of pilots are over weight, most carrying a good beer belly at the very least. Hell no offense but I would beg to say I find a hard time seeing him telling anyone how things are now since they've changed so much since he was in them. With that being said ATP has no right to tell you this. Seriously dude I'd hire a lawyer and look into this. It really sound like ATP is doing a fine tippy toe dance and almost crossing the line. The fact of the matter is everything you've wrote so far ATP is wrong in. With saying that I can see the whole not transferring the aircraft to locations. I'm fine with that. However the rest of it is BS. We do need to get Van in here to talk to you. He made it, larger guy and did just fine at Colgan. I know of two in my class that I would say were rather bigger and guess what they are regional pilots right now.
ATP does not traing Airline pilots. They train pilots to meet ratings. In the end they train pilots and that's it. The fact that Jim wants to sit back and tell you whom they will train and wont is just wrong. Heck we are going back to discrimination at its finest. Really you do have a STRONG STRONG case of discrimination. Discrimination isnt what it use to be and you really have a very STRONG case against them. They have to meet their end of the contract and thus this is a business. They did not. In the end the reason you are out is based on weight. Last time I checked that is illegal to do. Just 2 cents.
And incase Jim is reading this like the slime ball he is. I'll be looking for a good attorney or two that you could speak with about this. Because there is nothing more I'd like to see then Jim and his group up there be taken into jail and given some bad publicity. It'd serve them right. If this isnt the lowest move I've viewed in a while its damn close to it. This is just insane to me. Anyone here saying other wise needs to check themselves out of this site because this is complete and utter hog wash.
ATP does not traing Airline pilots. They train pilots to meet ratings. In the end they train pilots and that's it. The fact that Jim wants to sit back and tell you whom they will train and wont is just wrong. Heck we are going back to discrimination at its finest. Really you do have a STRONG STRONG case of discrimination. Discrimination isnt what it use to be and you really have a very STRONG case against them. They have to meet their end of the contract and thus this is a business. They did not. In the end the reason you are out is based on weight. Last time I checked that is illegal to do. Just 2 cents.
And incase Jim is reading this like the slime ball he is. I'll be looking for a good attorney or two that you could speak with about this. Because there is nothing more I'd like to see then Jim and his group up there be taken into jail and given some bad publicity. It'd serve them right. If this isnt the lowest move I've viewed in a while its damn close to it. This is just insane to me. Anyone here saying other wise needs to check themselves out of this site because this is complete and utter hog wash.
Clocks
Well-Known Member
Meh you can hire a lawyer, but ATP has one either in house or on retainer anyways. Saw him a few times when I was on the phones. In other words it will cost them zero additional dollars, while it will cost you a lot more.
Take your $60k and go do your training somewhere else. Use the $20k you save to hire a kick ass hot asian personal trainer (in all seriousness I know personally that losing weight sucks hardcore, but the benefits of an airline career don't come in your 20s, they come much later in your career. So you damn well want to still be flying then).
Take your $60k and go do your training somewhere else. Use the $20k you save to hire a kick ass hot asian personal trainer (in all seriousness I know personally that losing weight sucks hardcore, but the benefits of an airline career don't come in your 20s, they come much later in your career. So you damn well want to still be flying then).
Berkut
Well-Known Member
You need to check again.
meyers9163
Well-Known Member
A C172 is perfectly capable of carrying that weight. A C172sp is especially able to. Both of which ATP have. ATP's policy about fuel and not taking off with reduced loans is BS for this situation. In the end last time I checked weight is a form of discrimination. And discrimination was and is indeed illegal? no?
Berkut
Well-Known Member
Discrimination against a protected class is illegal. Obese people are not a federally protected class.
do you really think the personal attacks make you more credible in what you have to say?
and really...everyone has a valid opinion..just as you have yours. anyone else saying otherwise is considered a valid opinion that may differ from yours and they are more than welcome to stay *on* the site. you don't have the authority to say as to whether people can come or go (just want to make that clear).
Clocks
Well-Known Member
Please be honest with everyone and admit you don't give a flying **** about the OP or his issue. The only thing you want to do is enjoy an opportunity to bash ATP. Even if it is discrimination, the OP's problem is just a way for you to get off.
meyers9163
Well-Known Member
My moms side of her family suffers from OBESITY. My mom and sister and aunt all had surgery in order to address the issue. Its a very sensitive issue. Thus this just pisses me off even more. If you want to go back and work for ATP have at it. This is very questionable at the least. If ATPs policy about fuel is really one perhaps when their students go and do xcs they should refuel at every stop. That is if they truely are so concern about the fuel issue. Plus any CFI should be fine going out with a plane with less then filled tanks and do a good lesson without a problem. Perhaps they are affraid to do that because most their CFI's just learned to fly 90 days prior to instructing. I dont know what their reason is. Not many places have such a retarded policy. And most places would also accomidate for this situation.
meyers9163
Well-Known Member
Honestly DCA and ATP are a lot alike..... Where'd DCA go? Some of us have strong dislikes for certain places. The operations and how things are run. If I can help someone save money and go through their training in and at a better place I will do so. ATP really has the money and thus money does a lot of talking. Guess that's why in the end they are so protected on here.
meyers9163
Well-Known Member
A protected CLASS? What are they animals now?
Berkut
Well-Known Member
You don't know what the term "protected class" means as it relates to discrimination?
Clocks
Well-Known Member
Just because I critique the way you address your bias against ATP doesn't mean I support ATP. I wouldn't send a friend there. I just think more energy should be focused on the "real" issues, rather than your approach of spinning EVERY issue to look as anti-ATP as possible. You're like the guy standing on the street corner screaming about the end of the world. Maybe he's right...but not many people are going to listen.
And http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_class
BillH
New Member
I see fat pilots all over, For Jet Blue, Regionals, and even on Lear jets.
Truth to the matter, everyone is very judgmental and for the person that is obese, life is much less fair in that regard. Maybe you can win some battles in court but your never going to win over 10,000 years of genetic programming of people to be judgmental about weight. I've seen the worst of it, you need to do what you need to do for your self, no one else.
After losing my 260lbs with diet and exercise, I am saddened by how much better I am treated by others and the automatic respect I gained for simply not being fat. If you've never been there, you would never understand it. ATP is very judgmental. I don't want to name names but I've seen a certain old white shirt crack jokes to people in JAX, a new class of new hires about being sumo wrestlers because of their weight, a certain white shirt made comments to me as he sat next to me in the DA40 about being too damn big for it, and comments everyone made about one person in JAX who rode a moped to the school. Heck, first day of standardization for me, I wore shorts, that was enough to get some white shirt making comments to an ATP employee about me. You would really think they would have more important things to discuss or work on than to eat their own young for sport? No, ATP is a dog eat dog world unless you go to a small location like Stuart. You will still end up in JAX though one way or another.
You know though, it probably is part of the formula, maybe they are that way on purpose, to get all their students used to the corporate side of the airlines, to realize that you ARE just a number and something to be judged fairly or not.
And with all the comments about Jim, from my own personal experience, he is one of the few at ATP who will tell you the honest to goodness truth as to "WHY". He told you the truth, he didn't make up an excuse. I respect him for that. And when you ever talk to Jim, don't ever make up excuses, he nor the airlines respect that, he wants to hear you accept responsibilities for your own actions. Thankfully I never had to contend with that during my ACPP training.
Ok, back to the origial topic. People are people, you can not change the world, the world is not fair, only thing you can control is yourself. Take this experience as motivation if you so choose. My reasons to lose the weight had nothing to do with Aviation. I simply realized, "Hey I can be a pilot now, screw being an Air Traffic Controller!"
Truth to the matter, everyone is very judgmental and for the person that is obese, life is much less fair in that regard. Maybe you can win some battles in court but your never going to win over 10,000 years of genetic programming of people to be judgmental about weight. I've seen the worst of it, you need to do what you need to do for your self, no one else.
After losing my 260lbs with diet and exercise, I am saddened by how much better I am treated by others and the automatic respect I gained for simply not being fat. If you've never been there, you would never understand it. ATP is very judgmental. I don't want to name names but I've seen a certain old white shirt crack jokes to people in JAX, a new class of new hires about being sumo wrestlers because of their weight, a certain white shirt made comments to me as he sat next to me in the DA40 about being too damn big for it, and comments everyone made about one person in JAX who rode a moped to the school. Heck, first day of standardization for me, I wore shorts, that was enough to get some white shirt making comments to an ATP employee about me. You would really think they would have more important things to discuss or work on than to eat their own young for sport? No, ATP is a dog eat dog world unless you go to a small location like Stuart. You will still end up in JAX though one way or another.
You know though, it probably is part of the formula, maybe they are that way on purpose, to get all their students used to the corporate side of the airlines, to realize that you ARE just a number and something to be judged fairly or not.
And with all the comments about Jim, from my own personal experience, he is one of the few at ATP who will tell you the honest to goodness truth as to "WHY". He told you the truth, he didn't make up an excuse. I respect him for that. And when you ever talk to Jim, don't ever make up excuses, he nor the airlines respect that, he wants to hear you accept responsibilities for your own actions. Thankfully I never had to contend with that during my ACPP training.
Ok, back to the origial topic. People are people, you can not change the world, the world is not fair, only thing you can control is yourself. Take this experience as motivation if you so choose. My reasons to lose the weight had nothing to do with Aviation. I simply realized, "Hey I can be a pilot now, screw being an Air Traffic Controller!"
SpiraMirabilis
Possible Subversive
Obesity is not a protected class but disability as defined by the American's With Disabilities Act is a protected class.
The EEOC handbook has expounded on the issue of the ADA and obesity:
The major metric applied is whether or not it constitutes a substantial limitation of a major life activity. Additionally another metric is discrimination based on a perceived disability, so while the OP may or may not fall inside the definition of a disabled person based on his weight alone -- if ATP believes he does then it is also a tort. Additionally I think Jim's phone call implies that he also thinks airlines would discriminate against him based on a perception of disability? I don't think they would because they actually have HR departments which understand this type of law.
The burden for the company/organization accused of discrimination is "the reasonable modification of rules, policies or practices." I think it would be reasonable to modify their policy on full fuel, I also think it would be reasonable to modify their practices by swapping a 150 for a 180 hp aircraft at that location, or to allow the OP to do training at a location that has a permenant 180hp aircraft. Jim's statement that such would require "administrative oversight" is not a very compelling argument IMHO. Every flight that ATP has operational control over requires "administrative oversight."
meyers9163
Well-Known Member
Torts and burden.... aww words I love! Gosh I miss business Law and especially the partnerships and corperation part of it. Well put man! No one could have put it better!
Berkut
Well-Known Member
If Vladi34 were disabled due to weight, he would know it and we wouldn't even be having this discussion. He refers to himself as "out of shape ... working to get the weight down," not disabled. Major life activities are things like walking, eating, sleeping, breathing, caring for oneself, and so on. Being unable to fly in a 172 with full fuel does not mean he's disabled; by that standard, given the numbers in vladi34's original post, everyone over 230 pounds would qualify, including me.
At any rate, forget the above; we don't have to debate his disability. Vladi34 is probably reading this and we can simply ask him and settle the "discrimination" issue right off the bat: Vladi34, are you considered disabled due to your weight?
edited to add: He's not disabled. He already posted about his weight condition here: http://forums.jetcareers.com/ask-a-flight-surgeon/59860-worried-about-medical.html No mention of a disability.
I've seen nothing to indicate that ATP believes he actually has a disability; only that he's too heavy for some of their aircraft.
Too many assumptions. Why not interpret it as "I know you're not disabled, but the airlines are really picky about appearance" or some other legitimate reason? Which do you think is more likely?
None of the above is relevant if he doesn't have a disability. They don't have to accommodate him.
Now, putting the whole discrimination thing aside for the moment (and hopefully for good), my personal opinion is that you are right to be upset, Vladi34. I think they should have told you up front if they thought your weight was a problem, and they should have been willing to let you fly with reduced fuel. If they don't want to take your $79,000 then I suggest you vote with your money and go fly someplace else. Don't let this discourage you from flying! There are plenty of other schools that will work with you.
