Hands Off Steep Turns

Theotokos

Theotokos

New Member
My CFI and I did a lesson under the hood today and after doing some slow flight under the hood (which really helps you keep your scan up) we also did some steep turns. It was pretty cool becase he showed me a way to do it, "no hands". It is rather simple. We trimmed the airplane out for straight and level. Then commenced the turn, and turned the trim knob two more times (pitch up). We took our off the control and the plane turns itself. If you begin to desend use pitch to correct. I do not know if any of you all have ever done it that way, but I found it really helpful. I am not sure how it would work in other models, but I am sure it could be figured out.

After that we intercepted a VOR to track back to the airport and brushed up on landings.

My XC is Sunday. He has been helping me with what I need help with for the last 3 lessons (he was busy for a few weeks, so we were kind of at a loss but now all is wlel), and now it is time to go try a XC. He says he thinks I will be ready to solo after this one, if all goes well.
 
i was also shown the hands off steep turn a few years ago...it is impressive at first but overall i am not a big fan. The only reason i am not a big fan is that you are in the turn for such a short period of time it is much easier to handfly the airplane and adjust with pitch and power to maintain that there is no need to trim. Not to mention that once you are done with the steep turn you now have an airplane that is trimmed WAY too nose up.

It is a cool little trick though.

One thing i found that helped me the most with steep turns is to supplement the horizon (which found difficult to use because of the mountains on one side and ocean on the other, the horizon was not a very straight line) I used the artificial horizon. Just keep your turn at the appropriate degrees and keep the center dot on the horizon and the plane will not lose more then a few feet here or there.
 
I always taught my students this method. It's weird how some CFIs will teach to always trim an aircraft and to never fight the airplane except for steep turns. Its another flight attitude so there should be no reason for you not to trim. I would teach through 30degrees 110 rpm and two notches of trim. When you roll out past 30 reduce power and take out the trim.
 
mikecweb said:
I always taught my students this method. It's weird how some CFIs will teach to always trim an aircraft and to never fight the airplane except for steep turns. Its another flight attitude so there should be no reason for you not to trim. I would teach through 30degrees 110 rpm and two notches of trim. When you roll out past 30 reduce power and take out the trim.
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Forgive me if I am wrong, but this seems like a lot of procedure for a basic manuever. It also won't help you much when you are doing steep turns for commercial and you are required to do them in both directions back to back. It will make the transition from each direction more difficult.

I have found that applying some back pressure as you roll into the first 30 degrees and then maintaining that pressure during the 45-50 is not a problem. When you roll back out, just relieve the backpressure and roll into the next turn with the same process.

I really never found the trim to be all that helpful. Different things work for different people though. I am a big believer in trim during slow flight for example, but some disagree with that. Just me two pennies.
 
Yes, I agree. You do pitch up quite a bit when you level out. I will try it regular and then see which I find easier. It was a great lesson though. Slow flight really makes you keep you scan up, since if you do not watch your altimiter you will quickly descend unless you add power. Then if you do not watch your airspeed either you will get too slow or too fast. The thing I struggled with a bit it heading, but I finally got in under control. Then we did VORs and those went great. I now wonder why I had so much trouble with them.

First landing was not good, so my CFI said he was going to show me the next one, and then I nailed the last one. He told me that I spend so long doing landings and then started other stuff, that I needed to review. So each time, we are going to try to do a couple landings when we come in.
 
It is a something to show a student but that is about it.
There are times when it is better to just muscle the a/c a little bit. I.e. landing flare, stalls, etc. Otherwise when you go to go around, recover, etc you end up fighting the excesive trim.
 
I teach my students when they roll out to mentally think about pushing the nose foward. In the archer just releasing back pressure will still make you balloon a little but if you "push" the nose forword it works great. Also If you establish a nice turn from the get go then there will be very little movement of the yoke all the way around the turn-roll or pitch.
 
Hey Theo, where are you at in your training? Like hours and everything wise. It's cool that you're doing hood work already, but for some reason I had completed all of my xcountry stuff before moving on to Hood AND VOR stuff.

I know everybody does it different, just wondering for comparison.
 
desertdog71 said:
Forgive me if I am wrong, but this seems like a lot of procedure for a basic manuever. It also won't help you much when you are doing steep turns for commercial and you are required to do them in both directions back to back. It will make the transition from each direction more difficult.

I have found that applying some back pressure as you roll into the first 30 degrees and then maintaining that pressure during the 45-50 is not a problem. When you roll back out, just relieve the backpressure and roll into the next turn with the same process.

I really never found the trim to be all that helpful. Different things work for different people though. I am a big believer in trim during slow flight for example, but some disagree with that. Just me two pennies.
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I disagree a little bit Dog. For the commercial steep turns you can roll right through level into the next turn with a little forward pressure and already be trimmed out. For slow flight, teaching to trim aft while flying slow is a good way to get into an elevator trim stall.

I always liked to trim for fast speeds, and hold the airplane for low speeds, just like not trimming for the flare. But as you said, different strokes for diiferent folks.
 
deserteaglle said:
Hey Theo, where are you at in your training? Like hours and everything wise. It's cool that you're doing hood work already, but for some reason I had completed all of my xcountry stuff before moving on to Hood AND VOR stuff.

I know everybody does it different, just wondering for comparison.
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I've got about 50 hours at most, although it is likeley a little less. Need to add them up. We mixed it up. My old CFI did hood work after my solo and also XC stuff.

Like one day was rainy but the visibility was good enough to practice under the hood. So we did that and then the XC on the better days. I've got another now and since I had been having trouble with the XCs, he we flew to another small airport over by where I live to kind of get the basics back then.

Basically, he said, "Do not plan an XC. We're just going to follow this road and turn to a southeast heading We are going to just try to find it by using the map and what is around us on there.." Then on the way back we followed another road back all the way and that is the road we pretty much follow there all the time. It really helped me get my basic maneuvers back down, such as maintaing heading and altitude. The last couple of lessons he let me learn to us the GPS, although I know better than to rely on it. But it is a good backup tool if you ever get totally lost, and you should know how to use it if you have one is my opinion. I just do not want to be dependant on it.

So now we are at XCs, with my first solo sometime after this one. Hopefully, all goes well.
 
I have only really been able to do a "hands off" coordinated steep turn in a Seminole, and then only at 45 degrees of bank. Two turns on the trim and the right power setting on entry is key. Can't say I've done it in a C172.

It is fun to see the look on their fact when you demonstrate it to a PMEL student if they are tending to overcontrol the aircraft.
 
BrettInLJ said:
I have only really been able to do a "hands off" coordinated steep turn in a Seminole, and then only at 45 degrees of bank. Two turns on the trim and the right power setting on entry is key. Can't say I've done it in a C172.

It is fun to see the look on their fact when you demonstrate it to a PMEL student if they are tending to overcontrol the aircraft.
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I'm coming to GKY and pimp slapping you. I SHOWED you that for your CFI-A training! :)

Bump the power up about a notch on the RPM, trim it on full spin up, lean back and watch.

I like to teach my students to use the trim, be it slow flight, steep turns, etc, especially if they're PPLs. This gets them used to using the trim, so they're more likely to use it instead of forgetting about it or (worse) being hesitant to use it.
 
Trimming is a good thing. I trim anytime I put the A/C in a new attitude. I do an initial twist/press just to get it close enough and then fine tune, later.

After a while, you'll be doing it with out thinking about it. It will help you out later when you start flying on instruments. The plane will be pretty much trimmed that you can do other things like change frequencies; look at charts, etc... with out the plane being all over the place.

The trick on doing steep turns is to roll into and out of them slowly.

HS
 
kellwolf said:
I'm coming to GKY and pimp slapping you. I SHOWED you that for your CFI-A training! :)

Bump the power up about a notch on the RPM, trim it on full spin up, lean back and watch.

I like to teach my students to use the trim, be it slow flight, steep turns, etc, especially if they're PPLs. This gets them used to using the trim, so they're more likely to use it instead of forgetting about it or (worse) being hesitant to use it.
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Ahhh.. but I said coordinated steep turns. By hands off, I should have said feet off. You will still need alot of rudder in the 172, but the Seminole you can be pretty close to coordinated without the foot action. Then again, if you want perfect coordination you do need to stay on the rudders a little bit.
 
This calls for a rant!

Can't say I'm an advocate of this. I think it is useful only because pilots should learn secondary methods of controlling the aircraft in all of the axis, but that is it. I think that this comes across as "rote" flying, first of all. This "two turns of trim", or "130 rpm". I just am not impressed by this sort of learning. It's not flying, too mechanical.

The other issue I have with all of this has been mentioned previously. In the real world, a turn is very transient. You want someone who can enter a turn and roll out, on altitude. Trimming for that is just not good technique.

What it appears here is that there is too much "teaching to the test". This is one of the reasons I was really sad to see FAA have to publish exam questions. It encourages rote learning, and not true understanding. Everyone likes to whine about how "pilots don't really fly anymore", or about the Airbus (and future Boeings) hard envelope protection in their flight control law. Well, the truth is we need it partly because of this type of rote learning.
 
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