deserteaglle
New Member
seagull said:
uh oh
Hands Off Steep Turns
- Thread starter Theotokos
- Start date
uh oh
seagull
Well-Known Member
Yes, "uh oh" is right! I think that this highlights, yet again, what is wrong with civilian training. Too much stuff gets taught without enough crosscheck, just gets handed down from one CFI to the next. You want the airlines to stop preferring military pilots, then get this fixed!
(for the record, I am civilian trained, and so I know of what I speak!).
(for the record, I am civilian trained, and so I know of what I speak!).
deserteaglle
New Member
seagull said:
Airline Schmairline.
I'm going civi too, and I can't even question the preference of any employers.
Why wouldn't you pick a pilot who's in multi-turbine airplanes before most are soloing?
seagull
Well-Known Member
I think it's less what they are flying and when, so much as a known quantity in training and standards. Sure, some sneak through, but the training is constantly being revised to reflect the latest concepts and science, and there is actually quality control. You get less of the "hand me down" lore, so much of which in GA is just nonesense (like the "danger of downwind turns" in extreme examples!).
gtpilot
Well-Known Member
seagull said:
It is good to teach and train both methods. Saying 'two turns, 2400RPM' to a student on the first demo gives them an initial reference - the actual input will vary on any given day and it will even vary between the same model of aircraft. Rote learning is the base level of learning and any good CFI will expand upon that base.
seagull said:
So, is your issue with the pratical test that requires a 360 steep turn or the given technique for holding a 360 steep turn? As long as the pilot has full control over the aircraft, realizes how different control inputs affect the aircraft's flight attitude AND utilizes the control inputs appropriately, it is good technique.
Again, if this is taught and done with a good understanding of aircraft control, the use of trim is appropriate and should be encouraged. I can't tell you how many students I've inherited who lose altitude when the tower asks them to to 360s in the pattern because that student does not know how to trim the airplane in any turn attitude.
As for standards - welcome to the civilian world!
seagull
Well-Known Member
Been in the civilian world my whole life, just now have had a lot of time to also see and learn about the military methods. That's all.
As for the standards, that is the exact problem. I know that people tend to cling onto what they teach and how they were taught -- I was a CFI also, and for a lot longer and a lot more hours than just about anyone else on this board. Not trying to boast, just saying that I know how that works, btdt.
I do not agree that it's "good technique". I think that I probably would have agreed with you when I was a CFI, but I have come a long ways since then, and seen a lot more.
Part of the reason for the PTS requiring it is for a scan exercise. Seems to me that if you trim it, you are taking out the whole reason for the maneuver. I can tell you that in the airline world, I have always been told not to trim. Personally, I think that teaching trim as SOP is setting up students for problems later on, possibly even busted checkrides.
As for the standards, that is the exact problem. I know that people tend to cling onto what they teach and how they were taught -- I was a CFI also, and for a lot longer and a lot more hours than just about anyone else on this board. Not trying to boast, just saying that I know how that works, btdt.
I do not agree that it's "good technique". I think that I probably would have agreed with you when I was a CFI, but I have come a long ways since then, and seen a lot more.
Part of the reason for the PTS requiring it is for a scan exercise. Seems to me that if you trim it, you are taking out the whole reason for the maneuver. I can tell you that in the airline world, I have always been told not to trim. Personally, I think that teaching trim as SOP is setting up students for problems later on, possibly even busted checkrides.
PeanuckleCRJ
Poodle Wrangler
seagull said:
They actually teach this in the CRJ for stall recovery and steep turns. Seems like everytime in the sim, the PM will typically ask "want me to set 61%" N1?... or something to that effect. I never liked that...Just because we're flying a jet doesn't mean that I can't have one hand on the stick and the other on the TL's.
seagull
Well-Known Member
Reminds me of another thing that I've noticed. It's funny that so many of the regionals call them "thrust levers" and all the majors that I am aware of (and that's a fair amount due to some of my safety work) just call them "throttles"!
I think it's fine to tell a pilot that you will probably need approx "x" amount of power, but another to get wrapped up into that. If the previous comment had been "you'll have to push it up about 100 rpm or a little over" that would have been fine, as that would have given a rough idea that can be tweaked depending on actual conditions, but to say an exact number "130", you are leading to a pilot getting wrapped up in that and losing sight of the whole purpose of the maneuver.
I think it's fine to tell a pilot that you will probably need approx "x" amount of power, but another to get wrapped up into that. If the previous comment had been "you'll have to push it up about 100 rpm or a little over" that would have been fine, as that would have given a rough idea that can be tweaked depending on actual conditions, but to say an exact number "130", you are leading to a pilot getting wrapped up in that and losing sight of the whole purpose of the maneuver.
BrettInLJ
Well-Known Member
seagull said:
I'm a little confused at what you are trying to get at. Keep in mind that this would be taught to someone that has typically gone through their private, instrument, commercial, probably spin training, and is getting a multi add-on. They already know how to fly the plane and it is just showing another characteristic of how the aircraft is controlled. I think that this shows how just the opposite.
Maybe some academies just have a defined set of training methods that teach to the checkride, but most FBO's with good instructors will teach above and beyond the normal methods because they are trying to make good pilots. If teaching another method of controlling the aircraft so the student is more familiar of how it handles is what is wrong with civilian training, then let me be wrong. If you are assuming that this is the only method that a student is being taught steep turns, well that assumption is incorrect and should not have been made.
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
Okay, I think we're getting a little too wound up about this. I teach this to PPL students, and we're talking about guys going to the airlines. If someone can't hold a coordinated 45 degree turn on altitude for a COMMERCIAL rating, there are other problems that need to be fixed. I have never in my life had ATC ask me, "Hey, can you do a 360 at a 45 degree bank?" The ONLY time you'll have to do this manuever is on a checkride.
I also feel that if you DON'T trim the airplane (in all phases of flight, turn, straight, sideway, upside down, etc), you're fighting against what the airplane wants to do, which is not good form.
I teach my method as a starting point, sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't. Depends on the conditions of the day. Now, if someone just does the RPM change and the trim and lets the airplane go out of what they want, then they need to fix it.
I also feel that if you DON'T trim the airplane (in all phases of flight, turn, straight, sideway, upside down, etc), you're fighting against what the airplane wants to do, which is not good form.
I teach my method as a starting point, sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't. Depends on the conditions of the day. Now, if someone just does the RPM change and the trim and lets the airplane go out of what they want, then they need to fix it.
deserteaglle
New Member
seagull said:
I don't know about all other pilots out there in the world...but I don't think that every one of us has to be told every small detail of what is supposed to be done. It kinda sounds like you're saying pilots ONLY do exactly how they've been taught.
seagull
Well-Known Member
I think that teaching it as an alternative, to show how you can fly the aircraft using secondary controls, is great, and should be done.
I think that if you are teaching it as the _primary_ technique, that is a bad habit. The fact that you may have been taught that way does not make it right, anymore than all the legions of pilots that were taught those inane things about why lift is created, as we have gotten into in another thread.
I think that if you are teaching it as the _primary_ technique, that is a bad habit. The fact that you may have been taught that way does not make it right, anymore than all the legions of pilots that were taught those inane things about why lift is created, as we have gotten into in another thread.
Dugie8
Well-Known Member
I don't know where to start. The GA pilot self loathing is almost sickening. Using trim to control the airplane is what trim is for. I taught in Arrows, and trying to do steep turns in that thing with no trim is a workout, and I'm a big guy, not boasting just putting in perspective. Flying is technique and understanding, it is a lot easier for a student to use a technique and then understand. Two cranks on the trim wheel, keep your altitude within 20 feet, power as needed. Good technique.
Must be only a select few of military pilots that have uber understanding of how to fly an airplane because all of the ones I fly with use trim, technieques, and tricks to fly the 8, but then again I work for a bottom feeder
Must be only a select few of military pilots that have uber understanding of how to fly an airplane because all of the ones I fly with use trim, technieques, and tricks to fly the 8, but then again I work for a bottom feeder
seagull
Well-Known Member
No self loathing at all, just calling out faults in the system that COULD BE FIXED! You may be happy enough that seems muddle along with pilots being taught things that are not always right, but I am not. If you see something that should be fixed, fix it, or try to!
As for the DC-8, I have a few thousand in them as well. They require more stick force/g than any other transport I have ever flown. Heck, more than anything else I have flown, period! However, I never have seen anyone use trim on a checkride in a steep turn. None that I can recall, that's for sure!
Look, not all military pilots were paying attention in school either, recall one F16 guy that had never heard of the Area rule, and was asking about coke-bottling. Most know all about it, as it was used extensively on century series fighters and other aircraft. Not that it matters for civilian flying, but I pretty sure that the topic was covered at some point in his training, but now he seemed to have no idea.
My beef is with lack of standards, inconsistent training, and some flat out training of bad technique or completely wrong info (as in the aerodynamic example).
As for flaps on landing, I hope you realize that the attempts to compare the use of flaps during landing to use of trim during a transient maneuver is just silly. I could throw that back at you, why not add some flaps to get a pitch change to help with the back pressure on the steep turn on a high wing aircraft? How is that any different?
As for the DC-8, I have a few thousand in them as well. They require more stick force/g than any other transport I have ever flown. Heck, more than anything else I have flown, period! However, I never have seen anyone use trim on a checkride in a steep turn. None that I can recall, that's for sure!
Look, not all military pilots were paying attention in school either, recall one F16 guy that had never heard of the Area rule, and was asking about coke-bottling. Most know all about it, as it was used extensively on century series fighters and other aircraft. Not that it matters for civilian flying, but I pretty sure that the topic was covered at some point in his training, but now he seemed to have no idea.
My beef is with lack of standards, inconsistent training, and some flat out training of bad technique or completely wrong info (as in the aerodynamic example).
As for flaps on landing, I hope you realize that the attempts to compare the use of flaps during landing to use of trim during a transient maneuver is just silly. I could throw that back at you, why not add some flaps to get a pitch change to help with the back pressure on the steep turn on a high wing aircraft? How is that any different?
Holding Short
Well-Known Member
Okay seagull, you win. I'm gonna stop using the trim and flaps. Real pilots don't use them. Oh, I'm also gonna stop using the gear selector, I'll just manually put the wheels down, every time. 
HS
HS
