Half Time Pilots

ready2fly said:
You're absolutely correct, Steve...and I know that (deep inside :D) but one can hope to beat the system, right? ;)
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Oh believe me, I'd love to sit at home and make guarantee, but I also want to get the hell out of dodge and move on. If I were still in the right seat, I'd be flying as little as possible if I could still make ends meet. Since I managed to scratch and claw my way into the left seat and by some miracle still find myself there, fly me until I hit 1000-1300 TPIC. Then I'll slack off if I can. :) I get no choice in the matter, being on RSV, though. Back in Sep/Oct, I was averaging about 35 block hours with about 40-50 credit hours. After displacements to ATL, displacements of CAs back to FO and LOAs, I'm breaking guarantee every month by about 5-10 hours of credit.
 
I got a buddy at xjet that took a 1/2 time line and he excited about it. I think if it is a voluntary thing, then why not?
 
kellwolf said:
If you're having to do part time lines.....um, there shouldn't BE any open time. Otherwise, wouldn't the company NEED those pilots for the flying, thus eliminating the need for having part timers?

I think as long as it's done with union oversight, it can help save some jobs. But when the block hours come back up, the union has to have the ability (and balls) to say "Enough. Everyone's back to full time now."
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Exactly.

Yet, unfortunately for some of us, we have peers who lack the foresight needed to realize the negative implications permanent part-time lines can have on the task of job protection and furlough mitigation.
 
surreal1221 said:
Exactly.

Yet, unfortunately for some of us, we have peers who lack the foresight needed to realize the negative implications permanent part-time lines can have on the task of job protection and furlough mitigation.
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I don't think a lack of foresight is necessarily and issue. Why would a company want part time pilots when block hours go up? More expensive for the company.
 
Bignellyxx said:
I don't think a lack of foresight is necessarily and issue. Why would a company want part time pilots when block hours go up? More expensive for the company.
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Depends on RSV coverage, actually. Our company is probably SAVING money on the LOAs b/c they're running every RSV CA on the NWA side ragged. End result is they don't have to pay a lineholder guarantee, and they're paying the RSV guy just as much as they would have anyway.
 
Bignellyxx said:
I don't think a lack of foresight is necessarily and issue. Why would a company want part time pilots when block hours go up? More expensive for the company.
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Ding. . .

kellwolf said:
Depends on RSV coverage, actually. Our company is probably SAVING money on the LOAs b/c they're running every RSV CA on the NWA side ragged. End result is they don't have to pay a lineholder guarantee, and they're paying the RSV guy just as much as they would have anyway.
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Dong. . .
 
jigglyball said:
So you don't agree with....1)Saving pilot jobs by reducing the amount of overstaffing at your company and 2)Pilots picking up line-holder advertised trips so as to make their lives better? So it's a win for the company, a win for the union, a win for line holders who want some trips dropped, and a win for people who want reduced flying lines so that they can enjoy life a little more. Sounds like the only person that loses is you, somehow. I'm glad you're not in charge of anything, we'd all be furloughed and you could do all the flying...
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I don't think you should be able to pick up open time with a 40 or 60 hour line, i think it defeats the purpose of the lower time lines in the first place. They are to reduce cost to the company. There are a lot of junior people that would kill for those lines and cant get them, only to see someone get one and just continue to pick up more trips. I've seen it first hand.
 
If the company has a need for half time, there should be a mathematical reduction in open time. I don't know if the relationship would be linear or not.
 
surreal1221 said:
Then I guess you didn't read my first post.

It hurts the union's ability to protect jobs by offering a lower paying alternative. Then, it hurts the junior line holders if the PTL are not taken away when the block hours are significantly higher. Hurts = significant decrease in quality of life.

Hell, I'm a furloughed pilot and I can see how it would hurt "other" people and not myself.

We at ASA also thought the COMA lines, the part time lines, and other VLOA alternatives would have saved my and 79 other people's jobs. Guess what, it didn't.

So, once again, from the standpoint of protecting jobs, it does very little.
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Yeah I did and I didn't feel ur post was specifically "all about me". So I guess I struck a nerve there somewhere talking about the other posts. As I re-read your post I see the bottom saying it's jumbled up, maybe I got a different read. I read ur first sentence and moved on because it looked like you agreed with me. In the future I will do much much less.

I don't know much about ASA, since you had many years of experience there I understand there's a lot to it. I was concerned this set a precedent of some sort when it turns out the program has been in effect for a while.

I was tentative about the HTP/HTL thing, but now after reading that it's not so new I'm for it. It saves some furloughs at this place because there are some high senority FO's with a side biz as well as plenty of captains up in MSP with the same deal. I just hope it works and we aren't screwing ourselves in the future.
 
falconvalley said:
If the company has a need for half time, there should be a mathematical reduction in open time. I don't know if the relationship would be linear or not.
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Our contract is pretty simple. 2% of the time goes to open. I don't feel it's a flaw, it's something I know these guys fought for in the contract. I don't want to see that language go anywhere. Also I don't pick up open time and once in 16 bid periods I've used it to move some days around for myself so I could see my grandparents 60th anniversary.

With that said, my company is different from a lot of others and what works here won't work everywhere.
 
Our union, and not the company, came up with the 40 hour lines, then the 60 hour lines. They did the legwork, they proved the cost savings to the company, and the company went with it.

As frustrated as I am about being on the street at times, I know that my union and my company ARE working as hard AS IS POSSIBLE to get guys back on at the company. They didn't want to hire too many so as to furlough, they didn't want to furlough, and they'd prefer to bring them back. They are, though, constrained by what they CAN do.

I believe that 40 and 60 hour lines are something they CAN do to reduce the total number of furloughs. If I was still at the company, and could have afforded a 40 or 60 hour line you'd better be sure I'd take that thing in a heartbeat. 20 days off a month? O RLY!?

YA RLY!
 
kellwolf said:
Oh believe me, I'd love to sit at home and make guarantee, but I also want to get the hell out of dodge and move on. If I were still in the right seat, I'd be flying as little as possible if I could still make ends meet. Since I managed to scratch and claw my way into the left seat and by some miracle still find myself there, fly me until I hit 1000-1300 TPIC. Then I'll slack off if I can. :) I get no choice in the matter, being on RSV, though. Back in Sep/Oct, I was averaging about 35 block hours with about 40-50 credit hours. After displacements to ATL, displacements of CAs back to FO and LOAs, I'm breaking guarantee every month by about 5-10 hours of credit.
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I applaud your progress, bro!! And I'm not shy about admitting that I'm envious. Here you are talking about getting to 1000 TPIC, and I'm just trying to put food on the table.

Blieve me - I didn't choose a part-time line....it chose me. Generally, a "Relief Line" will get anywhere from 80 to 90 hours. But, not right now.

Got another Relief Line next month with 51 hours of flying.
 
jynxyjoe said:
I was tentative about the HTP/HTL thing, but now after reading that it's not so new I'm for it. It saves some furloughs at this place because there are some high senority FO's with a side biz as well as plenty of captains up in MSP with the same deal. I just hope it works and we aren't screwing ourselves in the future.
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You know what. . .

I heard all about a the Captains and FOs who had side businesses who would LOVE to only have to be available to the company for 2 weeks a month for oh - I'd say about my whole duration with ASA before getting furloughed.

Want to know the reality?

Very FEW of them actually took advantage of it. For whatever reason, but I'm sure that as a 6 or 7 yr FO or Captain, even running a side business, that 75hr MMG means a lot of revenue coming into the household that they just could not do with out.

So the company decides well - not enough people are taking advantage of these opportunities, so well, time to send people to the street.

Also remember that many companies and unions have to follow certain protocols before sending people to the street call it whatever you want, but I'll call it furlough mitigation.

Once all the hoops have been jumped through, there is nothing else to do but send people to the street.

PTL/HTL/HTP is just another hoop that is going to get jumped through, and then. . .when the myth that it'll save jobs is realized to be the farce it is, furloughs are next. Sucks, but that's life.
 
If you think it's a myth, then hows about you e-mail the ExpressJet MEC and ask for the number of jobs it saved over there.

I'm not really sure how to put this bro, but you're wrong.
 
jtrain609 said:
If you think it's a myth, then hows about you e-mail the ExpressJet MEC and ask for the number of jobs it saved over there.

I'm not really sure how to put this bro, but you're wrong.
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If it worked for XJT, it failed at ASA.

Deal?

Nevertheless, the ultimate outcome is someone is going to the street once the t's are crossed, and the i's dotted.
 
jynxyjoe said:
I'm just curious if anyone thinks we are setting ourselves up for something bad in the future.
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Personally, I hate the idea. Mesaba did it a few years ago when the bankruptcy was going on, and I wasn't a fan. I see it as a diminishment of our profession to start having "part time pilots." If you're going to fly, you should fly a normal schedule.

However, I am very supportive of voluntary leaves and similar programs to mitigate furloughs. At AirTran, we created a ZTO (Zero Time Option) line program. Basically, you can bid during low-utilization months for a ZTO line that has no flying and no duty. You basically get the month off. You receive no pay, but you still get all of your benefits, and you continue to accrue all normal longevity and seniority. I think that's a much better option than part-time pilots.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Personally, I hate the idea. Mesaba did it a few years ago when the bankruptcy was going on, and I wasn't a fan. I see it as a diminishment of our profession to start having "part time pilots." If you're going to fly, you should fly a normal schedule.

However, I am very supportive of voluntary leaves and similar programs to mitigate furloughs. At AirTran, we created a ZTO (Zero Time Option) line program. Basically, you can bid during low-utilization months for a ZTO line that has no flying and no duty. You basically get the month off. You receive no pay, but you still get all of your benefits, and you continue to accrue all normal longevity and seniority. I think that's a much better option than part-time pilots.
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Whole time off sounds good. But at least with the HTL I can pay the benefits and get most of my mortgage payment down. Live off my savings for a bit.
 
According to a new management memo, the LOAs have been successful over here. 'Course in order for them to be successful, maybe you need to work for an airline you have to take a 1-2 month break from to keep from killing your pets to vent your frustrations.
 
kellwolf said:
According to a new management memo, the LOAs have been successful over here. 'Course in order for them to be successful, maybe you need to work for an airline you have to take a 1-2 month break from to keep from killing your pets to vent your frustrations.
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You heard it hear first folks. Kellwolf approves of killing your pets.
 
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