Hackers are taking over planes’ GPS — experts are lost on how to fix it

mikecweb said:
Thanks to you, I'm never quite sure where I'm going to sleep some nights.
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It's my fault you decided to be a pirate? You should've done one of two things, listened to your grandma or networked more. I don't work on your airplane. If you're stuck somewhere that sucks, but it's part of your job. Being angry about it just makes the problem harder to solve. Stomp your foot and be obstinate. Sucks to be you, anger takes a lot of energy. Act like an adult and try to help instead of just giving up. I don't care where you sleep, you chose to be a pirate, I chose to stay at the dock. Life is good.
 
knot4u said:
It's my fault you decided to be a pirate? You should've done one of two things, listened to your grandma or networked more. I don't work on your airplane. If you're stuck somewhere that sucks, but it's part of your job. Being angry about it just makes the problem harder to solve. Stomp your foot and be obstinate. Sucks to be you, anger takes a lot of energy. Act like an adult and try to help instead of just giving up. I don't care where you sleep, you chose to be a pirate, I chose to stay at the dock. Life is good.
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Wyd?
 
knot4u said:
Isn't this why most jets have three IRUs and GPS as almost an accessory backup? That's how it used to work.
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We have three IRS systems, however, they are updated with "valid" GPS data. if you Jam GPS, it is not a big deal the IRS plugs on. However, if you give the plane a fake but seemingly valid GPS position, it will update the IRS units. the DME/DME auto-tune will look for DME stations relative to where the plane thinks it is and then pretty much just get lost. without DME/DME to verify, the only valid input the plane assumes it has is the GPS... which is wrong.

The risk is that the faked position can be given over time - the area which it's happening has had a few aircraft nearly wander into restricted airspace in Iran. I'm not sure that they wouldn't shoot down a stray biz jet in that space... commercial airliner might be a bit too much noise for a shoot down... but def an intercept.

I 'suspect' that it's a faked LBAS correction signal that applies a geometric shift to all aircraft receiving the input; however - if you're flying in that area en route, it's probably not a bad idea to de-select GPS if you're not restricted. If you can maintain RNP1 without GPS, fly on without it. be nice if it just meant turning off en route SBAS. probably plays havoc with ADS-B, and if using CPDLC with position-based contracts - that will get messed up as well.
 
derg said:
Speaking of navigation, one of the two engineers that created the laser ring gyro and subsequently the Pegasus FMS software is a family friend. He lives up the street.
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Ask him if he knows Chuck Thornton. Does he also attend Bohemian Grove events?
 
TUCKnTRUCK said:
We have three IRS systems, however, they are updated with "valid" GPS data. if you Jam GPS, it is not a big deal the IRS plugs on. However, if you give the plane a fake but seemingly valid GPS position, it will update the IRS units. the DME/DME auto-tune will look for DME stations relative to where the plane thinks it is and then pretty much just get lost. without DME/DME to verify, the only valid input the plane assumes it has is the GPS... which is wrong.

The risk is that the faked position can be given over time - the area which it's happening has had a few aircraft nearly wander into restricted airspace in Iran. I'm not sure that they wouldn't shoot down a stray biz jet in that space... commercial airliner might be a bit too much noise for a shoot down... but def an intercept.

I 'suspect' that it's a faked LBAS correction signal that applies a geometric shift to all aircraft receiving the input; however - if you're flying in that area en route, it's probably not a bad idea to de-select GPS if you're not restricted. If you can maintain RNP1 without GPS, fly on without it. be nice if it just meant turning off en route SBAS. probably plays havoc with ADS-B, and if using CPDLC with position-based contracts - that will get messed up as well.
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This has been well know since the 60s as a threat, but only really coming to light recently after we’ve placed so many of our navigational eggs in the GPS basket.
 
knot4u said:
It's my fault you decided to be a pirate? You should've done one of two things, listened to your grandma or networked more. I don't work on your airplane. If you're stuck somewhere that sucks, but it's part of your job. Being angry about it just makes the problem harder to solve. Stomp your foot and be obstinate. Sucks to be you, anger takes a lot of energy. Act like an adult and try to help instead of just giving up. I don't care where you sleep, you chose to be a pirate, I chose to stay at the dock. Life is good.
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Sounds like someone got into the Scotchy-Scotch! GOULETTTTT!
 
I'm a Luddite here, so please forgive the ignorance.

Wasn't there a time, though, when airplanes circumnavigated the globe somehow based upon pilot and navigational skill without reliance upon GPS and satellites and shi ... stuff? Thinking specifically of Pan Am Clippers and such and-old world crews, but,I know it happened. And no one could hack it🤷‍♂️
 
MikeD said:
This has been well know since the 60s as a threat, but only really coming to light recently after we’ve placed so many of our navigational eggs in the GPS basket.
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yeah, was kinda pointing that out to K4U. Its the gradual change that's almost unnoticeable that gets ya though
 
Bob Ridpath said:
I'm a Luddite here, so please forgive the ignorance.

Wasn't there a time, though, when airplanes circumnavigated the globe somehow based upon pilot and navigational skill without reliance upon GPS and satellites and shi ... stuff? Thinking specifically of Pan Am Clippers and such and-old world crews, but,I know it happened. And no one could hack it🤷‍♂️
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Grandpa crossed oceans with a sextant, yes, and held a navigator's certificate; Dad did so with the occasional help of a flight navigator or LORAN early on as well.

As @MikeD pointed out we've basically put all the nav eggs into the GPS basket.
 
Autothrust Blue said:
Grandpa crossed oceans with a sextant, yes, and held a navigator's certificate; Dad did so with the occasional help of a flight navigator or LORAN early on as well.

As @MikeD pointed out we've basically put all the nav eggs into the GPS basket.
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It’s not so much a problem that we’ve put all our eggs in the GPS basket- it’s that we’ve put integrity monitoring In the same exact basket.

Even if we just air gapped IRS 3 and had it flag with a disagreement beyond its calculated drift rate would make this threat largely irrelevant.
 
Autothrust Blue said:
Grandpa crossed oceans with a sextant, yes, and held a navigator's certificate; Dad did so with the occasional help of a flight navigator or LORAN early on as well.

As @MikeD pointed out we've basically put all the nav eggs into the GPS basket.
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Oh it gets far far darker than that when you want to look at means to create an effective electronic attack utilizing Cyber Electromagnetic Effects (CEMA).

Does your aircraft allow an option to manually disable the GPS updates to the INU in flight? How about ADSB-IN can you lock that out? When was the last time you timed your watch to the aircraft vs the other way around?

Effectively we are flying big open ended receivers for anybody with the brains and desire to create absolute hell. If you want to start learning about just how cyber codes can be as dangerous as a cruise missile in terms of ability to be used militarily/terror aspects I suggest you go watch the documentary “Zero Days” on what somebody did with Stuxtnet.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Lawman said:
Oh it gets far far darker than that when you want to look at means to create an effective electronic attack utilizing Cyber Electromagnetic Effects (CEMA).

Does your aircraft allow an option to manually disable the GPS updates to the INU in flight? How about ADSB-IN can you lock that out? When was the last time you timed your watch to the aircraft vs the other way around?

Effectively we are flying big open ended receivers for anybody with the brains and desire to create absolute hell. If you want to start learning about just how cyber codes can be as dangerous as a cruise missile in terms of ability to be used militarily/terror aspects I suggest you go watch the documentary “Zero Days” on what somebody did with Stuxtnet.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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The ability to deselect sensors is a requirement for certification.
 
Lawman said:
Does your aircraft allow an option to manually disable the GPS updates to the INU in flight? How about ADSB-IN can you lock that out?
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Minor matter but the GPS is an input to the FMC on my jet, but yes, I know how to turn it off. And we aren't even -in equipped.
 
TUCKnTRUCK said:
yeah, was kinda pointing that out to K4U. Its the gradual change that's almost unnoticeable that gets ya though
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Agreed. And while jamming is fairly easy to deal with, as you say, the spoofing isn’t. There is a term for that, known as Meaconing. Back in the day, we had to file Meaconing, Intrusion, Jamming, Interference (MIJI) reports with the military, if we encountered any of these.
 
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