Gulfstream Intl Airlines Is Now Silver Airways

Bumblebee said:
The more accurate term, no matter what the "industry" called it is PFJ, we all paid for training, you paid for a job that is in fact what it was.
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If that's what you prefer, then so be it. But you shouldn't complain when I use the term that has been used for a couple of decades for the practice.

To be fair I wasn't aware that that's what ASA and the others did in the 90's.
Were they 121 outfits with required crew members then?
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Yes, these were all for required crew member positions on large turboprop and 50-seat RJ aircraft. Companies starting doing it because they realized that there was a glut of qualified applicants, so they could eliminate (or at least offset) their training costs by having the newhires pay for it themselves. Since everyone was so desperate for a job, and since almost every regional was doing it, most guys just gave in and paid up, thinking of it as an investment in their careers towards getting to that coveted major airline gig. Of course, by doing so, they perpetuated the practice until ALPA finally started pushing back. If you look in the ALPA Administrative Manual under Collective Bargaining, you'll see that it is recommended to MECs to prohibit "Pay For Training" at their companies. This happened as a result of the widespread practice in the '90s. Gulfstream started doing it during the same timeframe when they were still a BE-99 and Shorts 360 operator, but they didn't cease the practice when the other carriers did.

look I don't even care about that issue, if they (the other airlines) were then they were built on the backs of young hungry guys that wanted a career just like you.

In fact, you were as much a victim of that system as anyone else could claim to be...
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Eh, maybe, maybe not. I should have done more research. Instead, I was hungry to be an airline pilot, and took what I thought was the quickest route. Had I done more research, I could have avoided doing something that I regret. In the end, it turned out well for me, but it still sucks.
 
Maximillian_Jenius said:
Yea well know more then a few who have flown them and also applied while they were hiring during my sabbatical. Isn't that wrong? I thought flying on them was tantamount to supporting them. And being employed there I thought was signalling to their management and others that taking their low pay and poor work rules is okay. It's just all so confusing because of all the hate that we were supposed to have for all of them. They were all bringing down pay, work rules et al. when I was a regular. But now I guess all's forgiven???

I can't keep up!
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Things change. Gulfsteam is no longer a PFT airline. GoJet is no longer violating anyone's scope clause. The TSA pilots have a new CBA that was ratified by the pilots, and it didn't get rid of separate operations.

Glad to have you back. :)
 
So is someone going there still considered scum now? New pay, new work rules, new name, new airplanes , new routes, and new management. The last is the biggest thing.

It is not the same airline that was around ore bankruptcy.

It's funny seeing somebody flying a 50 seat jjjjjeeeeetttt making $3 more per hour than someone in a 19 seat turboprop tell them how low they are....
 
No, but someone going there might have *some* trouble with people who are ignorant to reality. I wouldn't worry too much though. Someone going there should definitely thing hard about the contract and what QOL will be like for them. The BIL base is also a very real possibility.
 
So we have an idea what we're talking about: Gulfstream, A "bad" regional, and a "good" regional

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Remember, the 1900s are being replaced by Saabs. If someone at GIA knows different, please correct me, but I have to assume that a Saab will pay the same as their old EMB-120 scale, which starts at $22/hr, pretty much identical to everyone's newhire RJ rate.

Yes, the pay starts to change as the longevity increases, but that's to be expected on a small turboprop compared to a jet.
 
Is there the training bond I was hearing about. They take a certain amount out of each pay check. If you leave before 5 years you have to pay a certain amount.
 
ASpilot2be said:
Is there the training bond I was hearing about. They take a certain amount out of each pay check. If you leave before 5 years you have to pay a certain amount.
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No, like Lakes and Eagle(At 500 hours) there's a contract. 2 years 24K pro rated.

And those pay scales are not up to date for Gulfstream. FO pay starts at 19/hr, so with the addition of the SF34 you could assume it would be at EMB120 pay, or 22-23 per hour. Same as a "good" regional 50 seat Jet, but with only 30 seats.....
 
*shrug*. I don't really have a dog in this fight. I've only met a few guys who flew there and that was years ago. They were uh "less than positive". Maybe it's great, now.

I doubt it.

I would be curious to see the revised payscale and what it looks like around year 5. Whatever the case everyone ought to do their due dilligence and try to make a frank and honest assessment of the various scenarios based on examining pay, work rules, and interviewing their potential peers. All scenarios, not just the 1/100 who get "their 1000 TPIC" and go get that seat they were promised at Delta.
 
DPApilot said:
No, like Lakes and Eagle(At 500 hours) there's a contract. 2 years 24K pro rated.
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Besides Eagle, the whole 2 year contract deal is there because they have a hard time finding people stupid enough to sludge through that crap for two years. It's the only way to keep people. I have a one year pro rated contract where I'm at now for the same type of equipment with a PIC type.

DPApilot said:
And those pay scales are not up to date for Gulfstream. FO pay starts at 19/hr, so with the addition of the SF34 you could assume it would be at EMB120 pay, or 22-23 per hour. Same as a "good" regional 50 seat Jet, but with only 30 seats.....
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I would not assume...
 
DPApilot said:
And those pay scales are not up to date for Gulfstream. FO pay starts at 19/hr, so with the addition of the SF34 you could assume it would be at EMB120 pay, or 22-23 per hour. Same as a "good" regional 50 seat Jet, but with only 30 seats.....
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I'm so confused by this. Are you saying the worth of any company is based off it's first year pay? So Mesaba's starting pay for a Saab was 26 bucks an hour, and until just recently Continental had a $25 an hour starting pay (NW had similar if I remember right) so Mesaba is a better company than Continental or NW?

I understand regionals suck, regionals are hell, etc... however, I have to wonder if you are looking at second year pay (or any year following) which is a $12,000 or so difference for the pilot choosing the airline. That's a mortgage payment plus escrow for a lot of us. The first year goes fast, by second year when you are making 10-15k less than your peers I have to believe that enters into the conversation a LITTLE?

Am I the only freaking guy here in regional land with bills?
 
jynxyjoe said:
I'm so confused by this. Are you saying the worth of any company is based off it's first year pay? So Mesaba's starting pay for a Saab was 26 bucks an hour, and until just recently Continental had a $25 an hour starting pay (NW had similar if I remember right) so Mesaba is a better company than Continental or NW?

I understand regionals suck, regionals are hell, etc... however, I have to wonder if you are looking at second year pay (or any year following) which is a $12,000 or so difference for the pilot choosing the airline. That's a mortgage payment plus escrow for a lot of us. The first year goes fast, by second year when you are making 10-15k less than your peers I have to believe that enters into the conversation a LITTLE?

Am I the only freaking guy here in regional land with bills?
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I have bills too man. I may be 19, but trust me, I know how much it sucks having a mortgage payment...
Just playing devils advocate.
Lets say you dont suck as a pilot, upgrade in 1.5 years, and now are on Captain pay. Not too bad. Honestly, I don't know how lifers do it, but it's livable.
 
DPApilot said:
I have bills too man. I may be 19, but trust me, I know how much it sucks having a mortgage payment...
Just playing devils advocate.
Lets say you dont suck as a pilot, upgrade in 1.5 years, and now are on Captain pay. Not too bad. Honestly, I don't know how lifers do it, but it's livable.
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Well if you do upgrade that makes some sense from the outside looking in, however from my eyes this doesn't look like a worthwhile venture. You could get stuck there a while in the right seat, and when they pull out that left seat (even 6months in) you may not be able to take their crap for another minute even if they paid you $60 an hour. I'd tell you about a hellhole I used to work for called Colgan as an example, though I think everyone would collectively vomit if I shined up that old tune again.
 
DPApilot said:
I have bills too man. I may be 19, but trust me, I know how much it sucks having a mortgage payment...
Just playing devils advocate.
Lets say you dont suck as a pilot, upgrade in 1.5 years, and now are on Captain pay. Not too bad. Honestly, I don't know how lifers do it, but it's livable.
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Yea, but you have 4 years there till you can upgrade. It's 1900 time which doesn't mean squat also. Don't buy into the whole TPIC joke, it's a trap.
 
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